Does Healing Ministry Marginalize the Suffering?

The church that prays boldly for healing and the church that honors its suffering members aren't two different churches. They're the same church. Most of us haven't figured out how to be both at once.

ABOUT THIS EPISODE:
There's a tension running through charismatic communities that almost no one names out loud. We believe the Spirit still heals. We preach it, we pray for it, we build entire ministry cultures around expecting it. And yet, in those same communities, those who are suffering — the chronically ill, the disabled, the ones who've prayed a hundred times and heard nothing — quietly absorb an unspoken message: If you had more faith, you would be healed. If God loved you, that diagnosis would already be gone.

That's not the gospel. But it can live inside healing culture without anyone intending it. 

Has our theology of healing accidentally built a hierarchy of spiritual status? Scripture doesn't let us resolve this tension cheaply. Paul prays three times for his thorn to be removed, and God says no (2 Corinthians 12:7-9). Epaphroditus nearly dies in ministry and Paul mourns it (Philippians 2:27). The man at the pool of Bethesda waits 38 years (John 5:5). The gifts of healing described in 1 Corinthians 12:9 are real, active, and given for the building up of the body, and yet the body includes members whose weakness, Paul says, is indispensable (1 Corinthians 12:22). 

This episode explores what it looks like to pray with genuine faith and expectation for healing, while simultaneously building communities where suffering is not spiritually oversimplified, those who suffer long are not treated as problems awaiting solutions, and chronically ill or disabled members are not made to feel like a project or somehow less than. 

HEALING & DELIVERANCE PLAYLIST: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLMsjeViSScFG2ynSDtQTV6NcDuJtZteIv

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Hey everybody, welcome to the wonderful world of Remnant Radio. In this program, we're asking the question if the gift of healing does or can uh marginalize those with infirmity. Uh it's gonna be an interesting program. You guys stay tuned. Welcome back to the wonderful world of remnant radio. I'm your host, Joshua Lewis. Oh no. We had a YouTube tab open, so I'm hearing myself. Michael, why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself and what's going on over there in Denver, Colorado while I turn off my audio so I don't hear myself talking?

SPEAKER_01 0:32

Uh Denver, Colorado. I mean, I'm doing good. Uh had church yesterday morning. I'm preached the very first chapter of judges, which was a lot of fun, actually. I'm really excited to go through this. I mean, it's not the most fun in the sense of like it's kind of a sad book when you think about just failure after failure, but it's fun to get to preach that. And then had our equipping uh night last night, did some teaching on deliverance and saw a number of really amazing deliverances. So it's been exciting, man. Um, a lot of people showed up from all over the community, not just uh I think uh roughly only 30 people from my church show up to the equipping nights that we do once a month. It tends to be people from all over Denver, which is kind of fun. So I get pastors from other churches that are coming out to that. I'm really excited about it.

SPEAKER_00 1:14

But yeah, super cool. Yeah, well, I finally got that thing to stop playing. I just had to close all of Chrome because uh there was a YouTube tab somewhere open that uh that was just playing myself on the YouTube video from live streaming, so I couldn't couldn't hear myself with the echo. Uh, but we got a great program for you today. Before we dive into it, I want to give you a quick announcement about our good friend Michael Roundtree. Uh, he's taking a sabbatical there at his church and here on the podcast for the next couple of months. So uh if you're like, hey, where did Roundtree go? We've been missing him. Don't worry about it. He's doing well. Send prayers his way. Uh, if you want to send him a message about how much you love him and uh hope that he gets good rest, feel free to do that. He's gonna get a bunch of messages over Facebook from strangers. Exactly. So make sure to tell him uh uh hey, your long hair makes you look like a girl. And uh yeah, that that will help him get well. No, I'm just kidding. Uh but Michael's uh help him rest up real good. Uh love Michael, uh excited uh for him to take a break and excited for him to come back uh whenever he's ready to do so. So uh Lord Willin, um yeah, he'll he'll he'll be back here in a couple of months. So it'll be an exciting time. Uh Michael, any kind of announcements that you want to add on the front of this show as far as like uh stuff stuff that you want to use to frame this conversation?

SPEAKER_01 2:39

Huh. I mean, I would just say that I there's a reason why people in wheelchairs don't like going to charismatic churches. And I think they have good reason to not want to go to a charismatic church. And so I've just seen this problem all throughout my time uh being a charismatic and uh and even realizing in some level at at certain times in the past I had contributed to this very problem. And so there's some lessons learned, things to make right. So I hope that we get to do that in this episode uh and kind of bring some balance when it comes to healing. Now, both Josh and I believe in healing miracles, we pray for the sick with regularity. Um so it's not like we're in any way, shape, or form saying that you shouldn't be doing this. We are saying that while doing this, we should also be caring for those who are not healed. There is a uh a uh suffering that we all experience when one person in the body suffers. And so learning how to hold those two things in tension, uh caring for both sides, um, is something to grow in and hopefully will help you in that process.

SPEAKER_00 3:42

Yeah, that's right. And uh my dad uh has cochular implants now, but back in the day uh he just had hearing aids. Um and I'll tell you, uh I don't I don't recall him getting hunted down a ton. I'd have to ask him if that was his experience, but uh it is clear to me that people who have an outward visible evidence of some kind of sickness, a regular infirmity, some kind of chronic pain, um, they seem to be especially targets for people to huddle around and, oh, hey, let me pray for you. And again, I think a lot of times really good intentions, other times not great intentions, uh, but we want to make sure that the people in the body of Christ who uh are weary from illness are also there to rest in Christ-finished work, uh, not merely to get physically healed. Now, again, I think that's a beautiful thing when someone is physically healed. And I think someone who has gone through any kind of chronic pain or sickness or infirmity uh or disability of any kind uh would certainly uh long for that moment when that is uh brought relief, when when that healing comes, whether by natural means, supernatural means, doctor's intervention, etc. Um, so I I would hope that our aim is to mitigate suffering. Uh, but it's uh it's pretty common where uh there's this uh episode of The Office that's coming to mind where uh Jim is trying to get a manager's position and trying to get Michael to get promoted. And uh, but he doesn't want to tell Michael about it because he he's afraid he's gonna screw it up. But turns out not knowing, he's able to screw it up just as well uh as having known uh the possible outcome. So I feel like it's that situation where we're really trying to help, but we actually didn't just screw the whole thing up. Um we want to make sure that we're caring for people's souls as much as we are caring for their physical body when we address the gift of healing. So uh this show should probably uh address all of those issues so that we can uh care for people well. Cards on the table, we believe in the gift of healing. I don't think that the gift itself actually marginalizes uh the sick. I actually think it has to do with the way that people use it. So uh let's dive into the show. Uh Michael, take us away, my friend.

SPEAKER_01 5:51

Yeah, uh the fact is I want people in my church to pray with boldness. I want them to pray for any kind of infirmity out there that people want them to pray for and with some level of expectation because we believe God is a healer. But at the same time, we also have people in our communities who haven't been healed, who have suffered chronically over a long period of time. And both of those people, uh, these aren't two separate churches. This is the same church. These people coexist in the same place. And so, what does it look like to care uh and encourage those to pursue the gifts of the spirit, healing, miracles, while at the same time uh comforting those and suffering alongside those who are not healed? Uh and I would say that that I have this in my church. Um, and you know, I I actually reached out to a friend of mine, uh, Tish from my church, about, you know, she's she's had long-term chronic issues her whole life. And so what are the things I I just said I want you to put simply down, uh, what are the things you wish or the needs you wish people had attempted to meet rather than um treating you in accordance to your infirmity only? Uh and so she gave me some feedback that I hopefully we'll get to share as we go through this. But I think the place we want to start is is just by giving examples in scripture of those who zealously pursued gifts just like we want our church to zealously pursue, uh, while hopefully at the same time avoiding the mistakes that some of these churches made.

SPEAKER_00 7:15

Yeah. Well, the the very first one to start off with is Corinth, obviously, because that was a place where spiritual gifts were used to marginalize certain individuals. Uh, it seems as if when Paul is writing to the church of Corinth, there's lots of divisions. Some people are uh dividing over rich and poor, other are kind of dividing um uh over um uh various issues that are taking place in the church. You know, in 2 Corinthians, it's more about the super apostles versus the apostles. I follow Paul, I follow Barnabas or Apollos, I follow Paul uh in 1 Corinthians. But that that can that pattern continues of divisions and undermining one another and having a superiority complex. And in chapter 12, one of those things that he addresses in the divisions amongst the members is that some seem to find themselves as super spiritual because of certain spiritual gifts. And it seems as if one of those gifts that that caused them to feel real superior to everyone else is that of uh tongues. Another one would be the apostolic gift. We're gonna see that kind of more manifest in 2 Corinthians with the the super apostles, right? That Paul uh polemically writes against. But it seems as if here, these are good gifts given by God. 1 Corinthians chapter 12, ooh, I want to say it's verse 7, says these gifts are manifestations of the Holy Spirit. There's no safer place to be than where the Holy Spirit is manifest. So it's not like the gift itself is causing destruction, it's causing chaos, it's causing division within the body. What we have is individuals with bad character who are weaponizing good gifts, you know. Um go ahead.

SPEAKER_01 8:43

I would say in the Corinthian church, there certainly was that. I mean, you had people drinking, uh getting taking the Lord's Supper and getting drunk. But I would say in in the vast majority of charismatic churches that I've experienced, it's not just the bad character, though that very much is an element today. I'd say it's just a lot of immaturity. Immaturity and really it's bad doctrine that, in my opinion, leads to some of the worst practices where we end up marginalizing people who have long-term infirmity uh rather than rightly supporting them. So would you agree with that? Like I don't think it's all bad character. I think that that that certainly is a major part of it, but there's just a lot of immaturity based on bad doctrine.

SPEAKER_00 9:19

It can be it can be a spiritual formation thing on top of a character issue. What's it what's interesting is that Paul says the same thing to Corinth. I wish to speak to you, you know, with wisdom, but you can't handle it. Like you're you're just not mature enough to do this. And I do think immaturity is deeply tied to a lack of character formation. Uh, I do think those two things probably go hand in hand. Uh, they're not always exactly the same, uh, but you know, a person who can't give can't say no to their carnal desires um is an immature person and they have a flaw in character. So they're they're very similar in many respects. Um, but when I talk about gifts, I mean healing is one that we can say it's overtly supernatural. Lots of people aren't seeing it right now. So when they hear of these horror stories, they think it's tied to the gift. But let me just like uh put back on this some of the less overtly supernatural gifts and like talk about a teacher. Like a teacher can use his gift to manipulate people in the congregation, to shame them, to guilt them from the pulpit. That's not a problem with the gift of teaching, that's the problem with the person, right? Like a prophet can undermine the authority uh and the leadership structure of the elders by saying, you know, thus saith the Lord, I'm using the thus saith the Lord card. You you're saying this, but God's telling us to do this instead. Again, that's not a problem with prophecy, that's a problem with the person doing that ministry. Uh, the same is true of evangelists, they can exaggerate testimonies in order to look very spiritual. Uh, leaders can have heavy-handed leadership. Again, all of these are spiritual gifts or manifestations of the Holy Spirit within the church, but the the individuals using those gifts can hurt the flock. So I want to encourage people to recognize it's not a problem with healing. It's not like, you know, if you start exercising a spiritual gift, hear all the problems you're gonna, you know, come into. We practice prophecy in our church every week, and I'm not seeing all of the crazy stories from, you know, the hyper charismatic world when it comes to prophecy, because we have spiritually mature people doing it. We have checks and balances, we have qualifications, we have rules, and they follow those. We've set, we've set up a perimeter around our church in such a way that people know where to run, where they can run. So um, I I would just say that it again, not the problem with the gift. Um, there was an early childhood development study. It's again, not deeply researched, but it was an observation that if you don't put a fence around a playground uh during recess, all the kids kind of hang out around the teacher and the playground equipment. But if you put a fence around the playground, people know where to run and they feel free to do so. So I think that creates a safety when you have rules and systems and robust theological background to understand how to steward these sorts of things. So again, I just hopefully putting people's minds at ease that it's not the thing that's bad, it's how we're using the things without order, decency, character, sorts of things. Michael, punting over to you, my friend.

SPEAKER_01 12:20

Sure. Well, just to kind of back up what you're saying, you see this in Thessalonians when he says, Hey, don't despise prophecy. Or he starts with saying, Don't quench the spirit. And one's got to wonder, well, how would I do that? And then he tells you right afterwards, don't despise prophecy. Well, why would someone do that? That's kind of an interesting question. Why would somebody despise what is a good gift from God? It's not like God gives bad gifts, does he? No, absolutely not. It's not so much the gift itself that's the problem, it's how people use or misuse or abuse with those gifts, uh, others with the gifts. And so I think the same thing is true when it comes to how people treat others when it comes to their pursuit of healing power. And that is really kind of what we're addressing here. And so you could say, I would say probably the biggest problem, one of the bigger problems that we see is when healing is treated like a scientific formula. Uh, and specifically, I think underlying that would be the word of faith error, the idea that if you just have psychological certainty that this person is going to be healed, not that God is good, not that God is uh a willing God to heal, but that you know for certain that he's going to be healed and they don't get healed, well then that person is now the problem for not getting healed. Um, and I think this is where a ton of pain comes from. Um, I would throw on to on that another little area of word of faith uh that I see has caused major problems, which is actually, I think, for some of the, I don't know if you call him cessationists, um, I think of like Chris Roseboro, who's technically a continuationist, but he's seen a lot of harm done in particular with a gift of healing. But then a number of people that I know that are cessationists that would say similar kind of things, like so-and-so was told that uh they were going to be healed. You know, they were given some sort of terminal diagnosis of cancer. Well, then they died. And so that's why I don't believe God is healing today. So you can see the underlying uh abuse there is telling somebody that you know with certainty that they're going to be healed. And in the word of faith movement, it's sort of baked in because they believe that by speaking declarations, it's sort of an exercise of your faith. So you'll make statements of people who are going to be healed when maybe that's just not what God is doing. And it ends up leaving people in a much more uh difficult place, disillusioned, hurt by God. And many times, uh I mean, going to cessationism, I disagree with that, but I would say some even leave the faith, feeling like it is God who failed them, and that's a much bigger problem and concern, which is why I find that incredibly practical that practice to be incredibly dangerous.

SPEAKER_00 14:56

Yeah, when when you create these uh, you know, this theology that it's God's will that everyone be healed on this side of heaven, when you create that framework, God wants to do it, and and you understand that as the baseline, then you start constructing the formula that one is preventing God's will from being accomplished. Miller mentioned, oh, it's your lack of faith. You have it, you don't believe that you believe that you believe in this outcome. Faith in your faith, you know, this confidence that this thing is going to come to pass. Another one is like, oh, you've got some kind of secret sin in your life, so this is some kind of punishment, or maybe this is demonic. And again, I I would say that faith uh contributes to your healing. I I would say, you know, Jesus said over and over, you know, your faith has made you well. Uh man, sin, uh, it appears that sin can cause an open door for the enemy. Um, and it seems like people have illnesses and sickness, you can get cancer if you smoke six packs a day. Like that's a thing, right? So it can it can result from some kind of addiction. Uh, additionally, uh, it could be demonic. We see that in the scriptures as well. However, when we take all of those contributing factors and say, well, God's will is that you know you're to be healed in this life, there's gotta be one of these areas that's out of line. And if we can figure out one of those things, then you'll get healed. And again, what that does is that that causes the individual, the person with the infirmity, to feel that they're ultimately responsible for why they're not healed. So you've added insult to the injury, literally. Um, you you've said, hey, you know, you're out of line somewhere within this formula. And if you get your life right, God will put you back together. It is a works-based sort of salvation, and not when it comes to being saved, but when it comes to being healed rather than gleaning on the goodness and graciousness and mercy of God and trusting that even if he doesn't heal you on this side of eternity, he will heal you on the next side of eternity. So I would say this is a huge problem in the charismatic movement right now, viewing the gifts of the Spirit when it comes to healing as something that is always God's will. Because there are accounts all throughout the scripture. I mean, Paul, we know, has a very successful healing ministry. Uh, I've got the reference here in Acts 28. Uh, there's an entire island of folks at Malta who are healed. In Acts 19, 11 through 12, extraordinary miracles are done by the hands of Paul and Barnabas. They're taking handkerchiefs and aprons, and those sorts of things are touching them. They're being placed on people and they are recovering. They had a tremendous healing ministry. And yet, in the life of those same apostles, we see times where healing doesn't take place. You've heard us give these references a thousand times. 2 Timothy 4 20. Paul doesn't send Timothy a handkerchief. He says, Hey, drink a little wine for your stomach. If he could just heal one command, it was always God's will to heal. Why didn't Paul tell Timothy, you know, your problem is you don't have enough faith? Uh, or, hey, I just need to give you this handkerchief and you'll be well. Or you've got some kind of secret sin in your life. Paul just tells Timothy, this is part of the fall, dog. Like you need some kind of medicinal resource to help your stomach. Uh, then uh he uh Epaphrodus was near death and God raised him up at the last moment in Philippians chapter 2, 25 through 30. So in that account, we do have a story where someone was ill and they were on their deathbed and Paul was there. How is it possible that they even got to their deathbed? Paul should have just been able to heal on command all the time, but there at the last moment God seemed to raise them up. A more compelling example is when Trophimus was left in Miletus Sick, um, that is in 2 Timothy 4.20. Um, over and over again, what we see is there are times where the apostle Paul can't heal individuals, and then you've got his own infirmity in the book of Galatians, chapter 4, 13 through 15, where Paul says, Hey, you guys received me when this infirmity should have been some kind of stumbling block. Maybe it was the same kind of thorn in the flesh that he had in 2 Corinthians 12. We're not sure, uh, but there was some kind of infirmity that Paul was wrestling with and he wasn't healed. I I use these examples to say Paul didn't view this as a formula, and there were times when God didn't heal, and it really, in my opinion, comes down to his sovereignty and his will to participate in those things rather than our ability to get the formula just right. Miller, I'm gonna punt it over to you, my friend.

SPEAKER_01 19:20

Yeah, well, I want to go back to the word of faith thing because I think here's where the the central facet of harm uh or central facet, the underlying doctrine, uh, I don't even know if it's the right word. I'm I'm at a loss for words here, but but I'll I'll just try to explain the process out loud what I'm thinking here. I find that in the word of faith and in charismatic environments in general, not just word of faith, there's this hope and expectation for a particular outcome. And I I think that's where the faith gets misplaced is you're trusting in God to give you X, Y, and Z on this side of the resurrection rather than trusting in God to give you a resurrection. Um our hope, yes, we can have hope in this life for certain outcomes, but we can't say that God promised those on this side of the resurrection. We can say that we're tasting the fruits of that age, but we're not there at the banquet yet. And so our hope is not to be anchored in uh healing now, uh, prophetic accuracy now, uh, raising the dead now. Uh our hope is to be anchored in Christ, that his work on the cross was actually efficacious, that his resurrection from the dead truly will uh he will be the first fruits, the the first one to be raised from the dead, and one day we will be raised up with him. And so I think this is where I go. Your faith is misaimed if you're trying to get it all here and now, and when you have that misaimed faith, that's what's also going to do damage. Because it leaves people disappointed and disillusioned when it doesn't happen, always going back to the drawing board saying, What did I do wrong? As opposed to just recognizing, like, hey, look, God's a healer, he can heal me now if that's what he wants to do. But my life belongs to him. I gave my life to Christ. And one thing I do know with great confidence is one day I will be raised up to newness of life. That's where I'm gonna anchor my faith. That's where I'm gonna aim my faith. But when you misaim your faith on these expectations here and now, that is really where we run into the major problems. Would you push back on that at all, Josh? Do you have any comments?

SPEAKER_00 21:32

No, not at all. I mean, I I say that kind of pop culture thing that I'm sure all lots of pastors say, you know, if if your best life is now, repent and believe the gospel, right? Like you don't want your best life to be now. Uh that means that there's hellfire in your future, right? Um, my best life is in the age to come. Uh, that's that's when my best life is. My best life is in this future day. And I'm not I'm not taking a slight in anybody's book here, you know, your best life now. I'm not I'm not taking a slight in anyone's. Book at that statement. I'm just saying it's a truism to say that my future hope is not at the appearing of spiritual gifts, because there's a day when there won't be spiritual gifts like there are today. We're going to see face to face and we're going to have no need of these overtly supernatural things because we're going to be whole, we're going to be healed, and we're going to see Christ as he is. And my hope is, man, terminating on that future day with fellowship and intimacy and union with Christ, union with his people, a removal of sin from my mortal body, a removal of sickness and death and disease. So my my hope is on that future day, but there are times in which that future day, we get tastes of it now. Just like Israel going into the promised landing, a lot of tastes of it now. Yeah, yeah. Um just like Israel's going into the promised land, having a taste of milk and honey. Um they're every day more waking up eating manna that tastes like honey. It's a daily reminder of the promise they're going into, but it but it's not the fullness of that promise. We take communion. Uh, it is a daily reminder of the future age when we enter into the promise and we take that meal with Christ. So healing functions a lot like that. It's a right now present taste. It's not the full meal. Lazarus is raised from the dead, but Lazarus is going to die again. It's not the ultimate resurrection. Um, so in every account, you know, Jesus heals the blind man. Well, that blind man died and his eyes decomposed. It wasn't a permanent healing. Uh, every healing in the Bible, in that sense, is a temporary healing, in that all of their mortal bodies decomposed, fell apart, and their full healing is not coming until the age to come.

SPEAKER_01 23:39

Um, you you were saying we get lots of Yeah, I think we taste a whole lot of that age to come. I I'm I think I'm fortunate. I see a lot of healings. I've seen flat feet change shape right in front of my eyes. I've seen on two occasions blind eyes get healed, I've seen multiple occasions deaf ears get healed, I've seen tor tendons uh reattach, I saw a torn Achilles uh tendon reattach. I've seen endometriosis healed, and and that was just within the last year. And I saw a man who was uh uncapable of procreation suddenly uh now his wife is pregnant. So I I I've seen these things with some regularity, but I'm not seeing everything healed, and I'm not seeing my own body healed. And we've got somebody in the chat, he says uh when it comes to healing, um, that James had that expectation. In other words, he expected everybody to be healed on this side of the resurrection.

SPEAKER_00 24:30

And I would put I think he might be saying, even on the formula, maybe, because the statements really because he would say that there is a formula in James. I think that might be what he's saying. Uh, because James says but go ahead, argue from both sides. We'll take we'll take one of the things.

SPEAKER_01 24:45

Well, he he has other comments here that alludes to that. He says the problem is that is there are various verses in the New Testament which indicate healing should come. So this is actually what we think is a crutch of the major problem here is what we would call an overrealized eschatology, uh, with absent, which is often absent, of a good theology of suffering. Um, I I would say that yes, James expects the sick to recover. I think we should expect sick people to recover because God is a healer. But that doesn't mean we think that every person should be healed in that moment. I mean, the fact is when Peter healed the man who was lame at the temple gate, everybody knew this man. Why? Because he had been there for years begging for money. There's a reason why everybody knew that a noteworthy miracle took place and what 3,000 or 4,000 came to believe in Jesus in one day. Okay, that means that the apostles and the Lord had passed by this guy many times, but they didn't heal him. Okay, so that should tell us something that it is God's prerogative when he decides to heal and when he decides not to, that he is the one who manifests these gifts, and we are just simply uh vessels with which he does that through clay vessels is what we're told, earthen vessels. And so I I just don't think that we uh when you have this overrealized eschatology of everything now, you do not necessarily rely on God's timing, but rather on your own and your own willpower and ability to drum up faith to make it happen, which again is I think faith aimed in the wrong direction. Our aim is to trust in the nature and goodness of God, not necessarily an outcome on this side of the resurrection.

SPEAKER_00 26:21

Yeah, I want to engage I do, I want to engage with the the the question as well. He is quoting James 5, and and we're very familiar with this, we quote it all the time. Is anyone among you suffering? Let him pray. Anyone cheerful, let him sing praises. Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord, and the prayer of faith will save the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up, and if he has committed his sins, he will be forgiven. If he has committed sins, he will be forgiven. Therefore, confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. Uh, the prayer of a righteous person has great power as it is working. Elijah was a man with a nature like ours, and he prayed uh uh fervently that it might not rain for three years and six months. Uh, it did not rain on the earth. Uh, and he prayed again, and the heavens gave rain, and the earth bore its fruit. So that's the passage that he's engaging with. Now, again, I think it's our responsibility as theologians, everyone here is a theologian, everyone watching this podcast is a theologian. You, if you're a Christian, you study God and you have a knowledge of God, that's theology. So we're all theologians. If you want to be a good one, what we want to do is we want to take the whole corpus of the text of scripture and read it all in its context. If I were to read this and then go, why didn't Paul tell Timothy to go to the elders, anoint him with oil, pray the prayer of faith, and he'll recover? Why did Paul go to God and say, Remove this thorn from me in 2 Corinthians 12 and say, Hey, it my grace is sufficient for you to kind of bear up underneath the weight of whatever you're dealing with? But why is that the case? Uh why was Trophy to take some wine? Exactly. In all of those accounts, we have to go, okay, was Paul unaware of something that James knew? Or is James speaking more broadly? There's been a lot of conversation about the word sozo here in um chapter five of the book of James, and it has to do with a lot more than just physical healing. It can involve physical healing, but maybe that's not what James has in mind. James over here is referring to sin a couple of times. It's possible that James 5 is alluding to a kind of spiritual wholeness and wellness, that the sin that has corrupted their physical nature. It's possible that's what he's dealing with. But even if it's not, maybe if he's saying this should be the expectation of the Christian, I don't know that we can take this one passage and then with wooden literalism read it all throughout the scriptures. I think we have to be careful there. Um again, by his stripes we were healed. Okay, uh, but every Christian has died for the past 2,000 years. So are we healed or is it speaking of a future age? Is it talking about the right now tastes of that future age? Because Jesus goes around healing the sick and they quote that passage in Isaiah, saying, Oh, this is, you know, accomplishes the word of Isaiah. And yet all those folks died. So I I want to uh allow the question to be sat with for a moment for those who are who are listening and go, hey, I don't think we can read this with a hyper wooden literalism. If we were, then I would say I've prayed for tons of people as an elder of my church and anointed them with oil in doing so, and I haven't seen them recover. Um, the the question that also emerged from this viewer was hey, how can you pray boldly about something if you don't know it's God's will? Well, look at Hananiah, Mishael, and Azariah in the book of Daniel, you know, the Meshad, Merech, Meshach, and Abendigo. Uh, and there, there, uh, they said, God can save us, God will save us, but even if he doesn't, we're not going to bow down and worship. That was extremely bold. You can see that their their confidence, their faith was just outstanding. It was just amazing faith that they at the cost of their own life were willing to shed their blood. But that they said in that phrase, in that in that boldness that they had, they go, but even if he doesn't, because they recognized that God was sovereign, they appealed to his character, they appealed to his nature when they said he can and he will. He can, that's his power, he will. They understand who God is. They've seen him act throughout the scriptures. They have an expectation of what he will do. When we pray for the sick, we have this expectation that God is going to break in because he has compassion, he loves those who are hurting and wants to relieve them of that pain. So I know who his character is. So when I pray for the sick, I have this overwhelming confidence that they are going to be restored. But I also rest in the sovereignty of God, recognizing that I can't make God act. According to 1 Corinthians 12, he gives the gifts as he wills. I have to be dependent on the sovereign hand of God throughout this whole process. So that's some of my engagement there.

SPEAKER_01 31:03

Yeah. I would push back on the James passage. I actually do think it's talking about physical healing. I think it's historically been understood that way. But either way, I'm with you on that you can't take it with a wooden literalism. There's an expectation that here's the protocol. When they're sick among you, you pray. If they need to confess sins, you have them do that. Because that's also a part of praying for the sick and seeing them healed. But it isn't this wooden expectation of every time it's going to happen, and if it doesn't happen, well, there's something wrong with your faith. And this idea that praying boldly means you have to know with certainty it's God's will, show me where. I don't buy it. Um, I see people healed a ton. I've just shared a number of testimonies of the kinds of things that I've seen. And half the time I have no idea if God is going to heal them, but I know God. And I have an expectation that he's good. And so I pray with an expectation. But an expectation, like to what degree do you have to be uh certain? Do you have to be 100% certain? Uh does it what about if you're 99% certain? If you if you have 1% of doubt in you, uh skepticism, maybe he won't do it, then are you not going to get it? So to what degree do you suddenly have to conjure up psychological certainty to have enough boldness? I just don't buy it. I think the fact is we trust God for the results. Our hope is in him and the power of his resurrection and his character and his kindness and his goodness. And we place our anchor of our hope, not necessarily in the here and now, but in the the resurrection to come. But I also would say that the points of these healings are to point us to the resurrection. Every healing lets us know the resurrection truly is going to happen. These little healings that we see, like you know, I may I got healed of migraine several years ago. I had cluster migraines. Uh, I haven't been healed of a heidel hernia and acid reflux, but I got healed of the uh migraine. You know what that does to me? It lets me know one day everything's gonna be healed. That one thing is enough for me to know healing is real, and God is one day gonna raise us up from the dead. Um, the other part of it is if you look at scripture at the examples of faith, you're not gonna find the examples only being those who got the miracle. In Hebrews, you find a number of examples of those who didn't get the miracle. So for instance, Peter got the jailbreak, but then you see in Hebrews in the hall of faith, those who suffered in prisons, those who were burned at the stake, those who were sawn in two, those who went around naked, cold, hungry, and sheepskin and goatskin. Uh I mean, these are examples of faith. Those are also men of great boldness and faith, despite the fact that they didn't get the magical uh sorry, the miracle. Um, the fact that they didn't get the healing or the jailbreak or the angelic visitation. See that just tells us that faith doesn't look like healing. Faith looks like trusting God, whether you get the healing or whether you don't. Faith looks like trusting God, whether you get the jailbreak or whether you don't. Faith faith looks like trusting God, whether you get delivered from persecution or you get your head beheaded like James. So I I don't think uh we want to take one passage of scripture and say you have to know that it's God's will to heal every time, or you won't have enough faith to pray for the sick. Because one, I don't believe that, and I pray for the sick with a lot of confidence, and I see a lot happen.

SPEAKER_00 34:27

Yeah, that's right. I I'm reminded of like Abraham, who um his body was barren um but did not sin. So like he didn't have this again psychologically, he wasn't like, I'm not sick, I'm not sick, like he recognized I'm barren, and I need God to break in. And he's the man of faith, he is our example of faith, and yet he wasn't healed for many, many years as he longed for the promise. So I do think that's another example for the person who is infirmed who wants to believe that God is going to heal them on this side of eternity. I'm I'm okay with continue to believe. I I want to hold on to that, hold fast to that. The character and the nature of God is still powerful and is still willing to break in. Um, and I I trust him no matter the outcome. Maybe it's just a not yet, not a not ever. Um, so I'm just going to wait and continue to pursue that healing. Let's move on to our okay, go ahead. You got some.

SPEAKER_01 35:24

Well, I'm just gonna say this is exactly the kind of attitude that I'm talking about. The person in a wheelchair doesn't want to go to that church because they don't want to be treated like a pet project. They don't want to walk away feeling like, man, maybe I just don't have enough faith. Maybe I just didn't pray boldly enough. Like this is exactly the kind of abuse that we are trying to bring balance and correction to. Because the end result of the everything now on this side of the resurrection always ends up doing that to those people. Um, so I I have not just a minor problem with it, a bigger problem with it. Um, I think that view of it's you gotta know it's God's will here every time, is the one that's absent of a theology of suffering, one in which the Bible has plenty to say about, which is what I think we should move towards uh and maybe talk about in this episode.

SPEAKER_00 36:16

Well, well, I I you're right there. Um I also uh cards on the table. If I thought the Bible said um you had to have psychological certainty in order to be healed, I would be saying that no matter if its effects downstream on Christians, I'm actually coming to the text, raising from the text my theology of how healing works, and then am seeing contrary theologies cause a lot of damage. So I want the viewer to know like I'm not saying Calvinism produces people who don't do evangelism, therefore Calvinism must be false, right? Like that's bad theology is to look at the effect of a thing and then go, therefore, we've got to change in and tinker with the theology. You know, someone's really upset about this doctrine, therefore I should change the doctrine as a very slippery slope. Uh, I'm saying this is what the Bible teaches, and I see other people saying something the Bible doesn't teach, and it's causing a lot of problems. Um those two things, I want to keep them separate so people don't. It's a great clarifier. Yeah, like we're not saying, hey, look, that person in that wheelchair is really upset, and I'm going to adjust theology in order to appease and help that person. That's not what we're attempting to do. Um I just think that they happen to be working together. Um, this next one, uh, so we've talked about this one, treating um healing like a formula. And I'll maybe last thought on this. We do have a formula, we call it the five-step model. Um, that doesn't mean that if you do the five-step model, the person is going to get healed. It's not a scientific formula, just a process that we walk through and we pray, asking God what he wants to do, asking God to break in, um, getting feedback from that person. So I'm not saying that there's nothing wrong with following a pattern of prayer. It's when we treat it as a scientific formula that we've got a predetermined outcome as long as we run through these hoops. That's that's what we're talking against. Okay, so an absent theology of suffering. I think this is a huge problem in the charismatic church because the charismatic church kind of promises microwave Christianity, like, oh, you don't know what you need to do? Well, you don't need wisdom. You need a prophetic word. Uh, we've got that. Okay, an instant resolution to the problem you're seeking. You've got sickness. Well, we've got a Holy Spirit for that. You know, he'll break in and he'll heal you. You just gotta walk through this process. Um, all of the great things that you need for life and blessing now. Um, there is a charismatic church out there who will give you a bag of promises. It's an empty bag, but they'll give you a bag of promises. Now, to say, does God do those things? Absolutely he does. However, um, I think it's a response to not having suffering because it's like God wants our best life now. Uh, he wants us to be healthy, wealthy, and blessed. He wants us to prosper, he wants us to reign, he wants us to conquer. And sometimes people don't understand that these are spiritual realities that he wants us to reign in, he wants us to conquer in, and not necessarily the physical, earthly reality lording authority over one another. So I think that there's this broken picture uh of suffering. That suffering is actually a good thing in the life of a Christian. Consider all joy, my brothers, when you encounter various trials, knowing the testing of your faith produces endurance, and let endurance have its perfect work, though you perfect, complete, lacking in nothing. So James, the same guy who's talking about you know sickness in James 5, says there's various trials. It can be literally anything, and those trials and those sufferings actually produce good in the life of the Christian. Um, and I think that this is an important thing for us to grapple with. You know, you talked about the saintly lady in your church who has had chronic pain um, you know, uh most of her life. Um, that is a saintly woman who suffered um like Daniel, like uh these guys who are sold asunder, like those guys who didn't get out of prison and continue to trust God in the midst of that. She has a quality to her faith and trusting Christ that I likely have absent in me.

SPEAKER_01 40:06

Um, here's somebody who's trusted Christ for 70 years, uh to which how many of those years she suffered with autoimmune ailments, I I don't even know. I mean, most of it, vast majority of it. And yet this person is still faithfully trusting Christ, encouraging others to follow Christ. Tell me who's more faithful than that. Tell me a better example of faith than that. There is a kind of faith that we can only experience and only express and only demonstrate through our suffering. Um, Jesus showed his faith through his suffering, uh, his willingness to endure the cross shows exactly what his trust in God is, his willingness to not just uh be taken to the cross, but willingly go of his own accord, knowing that he could full well end the suffering at any moment in time, again shows faith. And when you have uh this overrealized eschatology of everything now, you don't have that balance of the George Alden lad, the already, and the not yet, but it's an everything now kind of theology.

SPEAKER_00 41:12

Explain what eschatology is, just for people who are watching, and they go, yeah, overrealized eschatology. That's a big word.

SPEAKER_01 41:17

Yeah, eschatology just means your belief around the end times. Um, you know, you've got different forms of eschatology out there. You've got your your all millennial, post-millennial, pre-trib, dispensationalist, uh, and then you've got within a couple of those um subcategories, one of them be what we call the already and not yet. It was a popular eschatology of uh or it was an eschatology made popular by John Wimber and the Vineyard movement, where they believed that that uh yes, the kingdom is here. Um it was inaugurated by King Jesus when the coronation psalm was quoted by the Lord from heaven and Jesus was crowned with the Spirit after being baptized by John the Baptist, he then began to preach on this kingdom of God. And then the kingdom had come because the king was present. And so we now have God's rule and reign here and now. Yet we're also waiting for the kingdom. We're waiting for the culmination of the kingdom where death and Hades is finally thrown into the lake of fire, along with Satan and all of his angels and all of those who rebelled against God. So we're in this in-between state where we are tasting the fruits of an age to come, but we're not yet at the banquet. So one day we will get there. But right now we have all of these tangible evidences of God's rule and reign pointing to a day where he will reign in full. Um, every healing points to the fact that there's a resurrection. Every prophetic word points to the fact that there will one day be the revealing of Christ. And every secret secret that's been uh hidden in darkness will be shattered from the rooftops. Um so uh right now we have a gift of tongues, but one day we're all gonna be able to communicate fully. And so there's there's all of these various gifts that God has given us, and they all point to this day that's coming, and that's what we mean by the already and not yet. But when you don't have that already not yet, what you really have is this everything here and now, um, you you can't have a theology of suffering. There is no room for that sort of expression of trusting God in the midst of not being healed, because it means something is instinctively wrong with you when you don't get healed. You know, it's like the God paid for it, uh, therefore it's yours. And if it if you don't have it, well, then there's something wrong with your faith to get it. Uh that's the only other way there is to process that. Sorry, I went on rant.

SPEAKER_00 43:35

No, no, it's good. So James says you're made perfect through suffering. Uh Hebrews 5, 8 through 9 says that Jesus was made perfect through what he suffered. Um, and I said I would say if if God who is sinless, uh there is some kind of maturity grown in Christ, um, in his manhood, uh, that is perfected um as he suffers, would it not be the same that we too would suffer? Romans 8, 17, and if the children heirs, uh the if the children then heirs, heirs of God, and joint heirs with Christ, if so, be that with suffering with him that we may be glorified together. Um, so again, here's another picture. We're promised this in this life. Tons and tons of promises in the scriptures about suffering. Um, we've got, I mean, I I don't want to go through this whole list over and over again, but all that to say, um, there is I think we need to have a dignity of value and a worth. I think uh a dignity of value and a worth to suffering. Um, I think oftentimes we're really good at rejoicing with those who rejoice. And we want to um I I don't know about you guys, but like the kid that was sick in school had the dis everyone was distanced from them that was like chronically sick. Because as a kid, it was really hard to relate to a person who was constantly in pain or constantly disabled or constantly whatever they were othered from the group. Uh today we're trying to, you know, prevent wrinkles under our eyes. We're we're getting the plastic surgeries, we're we're getting all these body modifications so we can stay younger. The idea of death and sickness is kind of revolting to people. They don't want to think about their mortality, they push it off to the end. And I think because of that, there are verses in scripture that we just don't prioritize, like mourning with those who mourn. Um, you know, I I've joked about this. I actually hope my wife does this.

SPEAKER_01 45:28

Um I want my tombstone to say if it's everything now, you can't mourn with those who mourn. It's right, oh, have hope and believe in God for healing. That's that ends up becoming the encouragement, which actually does a lot to dismiss and minimize the pain they're actually suffering from. So we don't know how to mourn with those who mourn.

SPEAKER_00 45:47

That's the truth. Well, that was one of the things when we planted our church, we prayed that God would um let us care for people who've been hurt by the church. Because I I realized that this was an area where we didn't mourn with people who mourned and just kind of hung out in the cave of a dolem with someone and just let them be sad because life really stinks right now. And um, yeah, so I I told my wife, I really hope she does it, um, put on my tombstone, he suffered well then died. And not because I suffered personally as much as it was uh being able to suffer with others well. Um anyway, uh fun fact. Okay, uh using Hilly testimonies as a badge of superiority. Michael, you wanna you wanna tackle some of that?

SPEAKER_01 46:27

Yeah, so this is just sort of us going through where some of the error comes when you believe everything is hearing now or everything is supposed to be healed here and now. Um we'll often, and I would say this is what I mentioned earlier about feeling guilty about some of these things. When I was early on in the charismatic movement, it was all about seeing the big healing. It was all about getting results. Um, and I would say so much of that in many charismatic communities is really driven by our own selfish ambition and promotion, like to get to be the person who is the healer rather than get to be the person who shows compassion to those who are uh experiencing harm. And so Jesus did these things out of his compassion for them, not to get another notch on his belt. And so, what does compassion look like? Well, compassion looks like feeling sad over the pain that others feel, being willing to sit with them in that place, having some level of empathy or concern for them. Yeah, it's a concern that might compel you to want to pray for them to be healed. It's also the same kind of concern that might cause you to cry with them when they're crying and just be present when they're in pain and they've received so much healing prayer, they're just tired of that, and they just want to be. Uh what kind of compassion draws you to that place? Um, because compassion should compel us in both directions, not just one or the other. Um yeah. I again I think of the person in the wheelchair, they don't want to go to the charismatic church when all people see is the wheelchair and the potential for them to be healed. Well, that's great that you see a potential for them to be healed. Uh the person in the wheelchair might just want to have their name known. Uh think about this. Jesus has a blind man come to him. The uh the problem is obvious, and yet Jesus still asks the question. Hey, what do you want me to do for you? Why did he ask that question? Why did he just say, Would you like me to heal your blind eyes? Why does he leave the question open-ended? Because maybe that's the most caring thing we can do is say, Hey, what's going on with you today? What's your name? Uh I'm Michael. Where are you from? Get to know somebody rather than just asking questions about the obvious condition in their life. Uh maybe ask something that might be interesting for them to talk about rather than the healing that you're trying to see. Um, that's what love actually does look like. Love doesn't just look like bringing healing, love may look like suffering with people who suffer. Sorry.

SPEAKER_00 48:58

Yeah, we we we typically train our folks at our conferences and in our uh training where we do spiritual gifts training. Like if you're if you're in a prayer line and you're praying for people coming up and asking for prayer, uh, which you know, no matter whether they're in a wheelchair or they walk up to you with a cane because they can't see, you don't just like, okay, let me just pray for this sickness. You ask them, hey, what's going on? How can I pray for you? Um, because again, we don't want to assume there might be uh, you know, for the person in the wheelchair, they're like, hey, I I have a you know a a wayward prodigal child. That's that's what I need prayer for. And it's like, man, that's that's really serious. Because here's a believer in a wheelchair, if they never get healed, they can never walk again, um, they'll be in heaven and they'll be walking again. Whereas their prodigal child, um, that that's kind of a a decision for now. We actually need to see that changed. And they're coming for care, they're coming for attention, they're coming for prayer to to this specific issue that's going on in their life. And again, we don't want to treat them again as a badge or a notch in our belt. Um, I'm I am concerned um with this one in particular, um, as using healing testimony because people we know that they're doing this uh because they exaggerate them. Uh, there are tons of stories of people getting healed, of toes growing back and these sorts of things taking place. Why, why would those kinds of things be exaggerated? Why would people lie about physical healings? Well, because it gives someone a badge of honor that they are walking in the power of the spirit and whatever they're doing, God's special anointed one. Yeah, and people, people will follow that. People will come if they're sick, and then we'll get to pray for them, and and people will be dependent on us in some sense. And and again, I'm not saying that that's there's anything wrong with being known in your obsidian as people who pray for the sick, and and hey, healings happen. Uh I'm just saying that the willingness to lie about those sorts of things reveals that someone's motive is actually to be known as that rather than giving testimony to what God has done. Um, so so I I I think that this this one here um may cause the most problems for people being targeted. I don't think it's wrong for you to go to a person and say, Hey, I see that you're in a wheelchair. Would it be okay if I prayed for you? Hey, I see that you got a boot on your foot. Would it be okay if I prayed for you? Great. Here's the thing don't do that every time they come to church. What you do is you pray for them one time and say, hey, listen, I want you to know I'm here to pray for you for this issue or any issue as many times as you want me to. You're in control of that. I'm not gonna hound you every time I see you. What I want you to do is if you need prayer, want prayer, come and find me. I I want to pray for you every time that you want me to pray for you. And there are people who will, you know, the man who was laid uh at the pool of Bethesda, uh, he was there for 38 years, right? He was, it seems, going to the pool of Bethesda pretty regularly to jump into the water, but every time he wants to, someone else jumps in in front of him. And Jesus comes to him and heals that man. That man seemed to have that issue for a very long, prolonged period of time. Why? There are times where people are going to go for prayer over and over and over. There's other times where people don't want to be reduced down to their infirmity, like the sum total of who you are is the paraplegic, the sum total of who you are is the deaf person, the blind person. Um, we don't want to reduce people down to those parts, those broken parts of who they are. Um, their life has more dignity than that. So um encourage, hey, I'll pray for you one time. You come back to me anytime you want. That would do a great deal of service to people so they don't feel like they're a target of everyone's, you know, uh testimony and their aim to see these great things take place. Punching it back over, buddy.

SPEAKER_01 52:43

Yeah, well, there's a comment in the comment section from Cam 49. It says that people are looking for connection. I love that. Um, I'd also say this is where I was guilty in the past in my early charismatic days. One, I didn't know how to connect. You know, raised in a fatherless home, the way that we connected in our family was just by being the funniest or the loudest at the dinner table. Um, so when it came to learning how to connect with people, I was oblivious. And so he praying for the sick became a point for me to try to connect, but I just didn't realize how much that didn't always work for those who weren't necessarily looking for me to pray for them to be healed. And so, what does that look like? I, you know, I do think there's some good resources out there. I'm hesitant because it's kind of cheesy, but I think the five love languages is probably a good book for learning how to connect with people. There's also uh great conversation tools out there when it comes to connection. Like here's what it looks like to feel connected to somebody else. Here's the things you can practically do to do that. And I would actually say for the person who wants to see a lot of healings, um, if you can learn how to connect with people, you're probably more likely to get to pray for more people because they feel safe with you. They actually feel like you care about them, whether they get healed or don't. And so I I think that's a great little comment there, Cam. Thank you for making it. Uh, and and you got my attention there. So yeah, I I think uh as pastors, leaders in churches, members in churches, what does it look like for us to be intentional learning how to connect with people? One of the things we said at uh at my church early on is we will not have an in-group and an out group. Um, if you feel that at all, please come and say something. I want to learn where that dynamic is taking place. Because I just don't want that. I want every person who comes to feel like they're a part of this if they choose to be a part of it. Um, no in-groups, no outgroups, no special thing to obtain to. Uh I think of the adage of C. Slewis, I think he said, beware of the inner circle. You'll spend your whole life trying to get in. Unless you ever get in, you'll spend the rest of your life trying to keep everybody out. That's the opposite of creating connection.

SPEAKER_00 54:49

But you would say that there's there's a difference probably between you've got 10 very close friends. I doubt that you even have 10 very close friends at your church. I bet you have five to six very close friends at your church. Then you've got another group of friends that you're pretty close to, and there's people who come to your church occasionally, and relational dynamics will dictate how close you are with people because you can't stay extremely close with a whole lot of people. It's just not a thing.

SPEAKER_01 55:15

Uh, I think that's so different than having an in-group and an out-group. Yeah, definitely. We talk about this. Well, think about what a click is. A click is a group that forms that uh doesn't allow other people to get in. Now, I may relay information to certain people that I don't necessarily lay to others, and that's because these people I feel safe with. And yeah, I can't do that with everybody. I don't have capacity for it. However, when it comes to things that are group events, I'm like the more the merrier. Um, if there's anybody who wants access to me that goes to my church, they're going to get access to me. It may not be as much time as everybody would like, but uh I'm not off limits to them. And anybody who displays that kind of like they're beneath me, they're not a part of this, uh, that's going to receive some sort of rebuke. And so I I maybe that should help uh clarify the idea that that that person is beneath this group over here. We're the ones who really have it figured out, we're the cool kids, and yeah, you're just not cool enough to be a part of this. Yes. It probably has more to do with some level of pride than it does uh access.

SPEAKER_00 56:17

No, I love that because uh I I think saying everyone in my church has access to me is a true thing. Um, but simultaneously to say, yeah, I'm gonna be closer to some people in my church than others. That's just the way human relationships work. And I think sometimes people hear human capacity, right? Human capacity works that way too. I think some people might have heard your statement and go, well, my pastor's got three best friends. He doesn't treat us all equally. Well, like neither did Jesus. Get over it. Okay. He had three very, very close friends, and then 12 that he was also close to, just not as close to as the three. And then there were other friends who stuck around that he would consider disciples, but just wasn't as close to them as he was with Peter, James, and John are the twelve. So it's like, okay, like we we need to have some honesty about human capacity, human psychology, the way the world works, while simultaneously fighting against what Michael's talking about, the Corinth problem, that there's the haves and the have nots, the superiors and the inferiors. J just because I can't treat someone with the equal amount of time doesn't mean that they're inferior. It just means I have a limited capacity for the amount of deep, deep, deep relationships I can have in my life.

SPEAKER_01 57:22

Um well, and and we all have to make decisions on who we relate to in general. Jesus had to make a decision of who to entrust his mother to. He didn't choose all 12, he chose one. Um, and there's a reason for doing that. We're told that uh bad company corrupts good morals. Those who walk with the wise will be wise. So there is wisdom in choosing who you entrust yourself to. And Jesus didn't entrust himself to, well, any man, really. Um, so that yeah, there's there's a difference there.

SPEAKER_00 57:50

But let's get back to the the uh we got three minutes before we wrap up. So I think I think this is good as as good as good as a moment as any. Um I don't know. I think it's actually hilarious because uh Jesus doesn't pick his brothers, it's hysterical. Like, can you imagine his brothers? I know they're not at the foot of the cross if it's recorded, but could you imagine James going, wait, he said what? Like, no, I'm like that's my mom. John's gonna take care of her. What's going on? Like, I've always thought that was such a funny, a funny thing. That's totally true. Someone needs to take care of mom. It's gonna be John.

SPEAKER_01 58:26

The brothers are like nobody cares about Joseph's, he sounds the most like Jesus. That's totally true.

SPEAKER_00 58:34

Uh I just think it's hilarious. Okay, uh, we you know we've touched on a whole lot of things. Uh, maybe it'd be good to you know pinpoint a couple of uh good practices moving forward. How do we steward this will? Uh ask permission about praying for people before you pray for them. Don't assume, hey, um that that this is something that they want. Ask them what they need prayer for, that kind of thing. I think that's a healthy thing. Um, don't hound a person in a wheelchair every time they walk in the door of your church, right? Uh feel let invite them to come and talk to you uh for prayer. Uh the most direct in the New Testament healing for local church is James 5, 14 through 16. I think that that is a pattern for us, but it involves personal care when it comes to confession of sin. Now, earlier Michael said, hey, Josh, I want to disagree with you. I think this is physical healing. I only said that it may. It may include something else. James might have something else in mind. I I I I've not decided on it if I'm gonna be honest. Um, but I I do encourage people in my local church, hey, if you're sick, come up for prayer. Um, but but you can have you can ask on us to anoint with oil and pray the prayer of faith. We'd be happy to do that. Um uh three corrections, treating healing as uh sovereignty, uh treating healing in light of God's sovereignty, I think is extremely important. Having a robust doctrine of suffering uh is extremely important as well. So uh hope this episode's helpful. Michael, do you have any kind of closing thought that you want to add?

SPEAKER_01 59:59

Yeah, I just I want to think about the person in your church that's suffering. What does it look like to care for that person? Uh if you're not asking that question, then you're not caring for that person. That's just a fact. Um, because if you don't ask those kind of questions, it's gonna fall right between the cracks and you're never even gonna notice it. And so the other thing I would say, and I encourage this for all of those who are not suffering, learn how to be okay with other people being in pain without you trying to fix it, or without you trying to get them to change their attitude or their level of faith. Just learn how to be. Um, this is something I remember with the church hurt that I experienced from my former church, the upper room. I kept having to talk about it. Like I wasn't over it. It was the signs of trauma. And one of the best, I mean, several friends of mine that were the most helpful in helping me in the midst of my pain and being a good friend to me. Uh well, Josh was one of them, Ben Rutledge, one of the elders at my church. I remember going to Ben over and over again and being like, I feel like I should be over this. I'm sorry I'm still talking about it. And Ben was so calm and collected, and he's like, dude, yeah, I mean, it gets exhausting, but at the same time, I get it. And I've never been through what you've been through. And I know that you feel like you should have moved on by now, but there's no timeline for this. There's no like two years is how long you should suffer for this, or three years is how long this should affect you, or four years is how long he's like, There's no timeline. If you've got one, throw it out. Um, trust God, you know, He'll take care of this, but don't expect everything to be done at this time. Uh, I think those are important things. Uh learning how to be with people in the midst of their pain without feeling the need to change their disposition about their pain. Um something Tish said to me, uh, the the person in my church who's who's dealt with all kinds of chronic illness, she said, you know, Jub's friends for the first little bit were really great friends. They just sat there and wept with him. And then they got uncomfortable with him being uncomfortable. They thought, oh, it's been enough time. And then they became really bad friends. And that's actually the example all of us should be looking at. Those were bad friends. The ones who just couldn't sit with them any longer, those were the bad friends. And uh, we don't want to be that kind of bad friend. Um, so for pastors out there, learn to be comfortable with people's pain.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:16

Bro, I'm a different kind of bad friend. When when you got fired from the upper room, every time you get my car, I'd play upper room worship music. Um you still do that. Still do it, bro. But hey, what it's a bop, it's a bop. You know, what can I do? But like, okay, here's another thing too.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:38

Like, uh I for that, you're gonna try to you're gonna try to end it on a serious note.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:44

No, no, no. Actually, that that's kind of what I mean, is it's like, look, I I'll pick on my friends. Uh like it depends on what kind of relationship we have, right? Like, uh, there are times well, like Michael and I, uh Michael, Michael and I, all three of us, um, have zero problem picking at one another and making light of things. Um, and I think sometimes when we have folks who um how do I say this? Um, I don't want to say make fun of the disabled, um, but I had a friend who had a stutter for a long time, and I still does. Um, but like we were willing to joke about that like we were willing to joke about everything, and it normalized it in a way that actually made him feel like he was part of the inside group. Yeah. So it's like I just I just want people to have like real meaningful relationships where um those those kinds of let's make light because I I really believe um if you can laugh at it, um, it doesn't have the same kind of power over you um that it did when it was just pain. Um and I think that that's like an important thing. Uh man, uh talk about all the things that I've uh I've had us laughing. Liars, thieves, ignored. I'm Elijah. Oh my goodness, this guy is he's on it, man. Okay, well, bless your heart, Elijah. Uh bless your heart, praise God. Just middle of my uh caring for people story. Okay, well, guys, thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of the Eriminant Radio. If you want to read some really crazy comments, go into the live chat of this video uh at the very end. You'll you'll get a good kick out of it. Thank you so much for tuning in. We'll see you next time. Oh, this Wednesday. I've got a really fun episode on aliens. You guys need to check it out, it's gonna be cool. Peace out.