Talking Past Each Other, Pt 2: Where the Real Debate Lives

A cessationist prays for a sick friend, and the friend recovers. He calls it answered prayer. A continuationist watches the same moment and calls it the gift of healing. Same event, same God, two labels. And that difference explains more about why this debate stalls than almost anything else.

ABOUT THIS EPISODE:
The conversation continues. In Part 1, Joshua Lewis and Michael Miller looked at how continuationists and cessationists end up misrepresenting each other: different theological streams, suspicion of motives, judging each other's worst instead of engaging each other's best. This episode picks up where that one left off, and it examines the reasons behind the arguments.

Because the deepest divides in this debate aren't really about the facts. Both sides can watch the identical healing and walk away more convinced of their own position. So Josh and Michael dig into the questions underneath: Does personal experience count as theological evidence, or is testimony inadmissible from the start? Why do charismatic scandals go viral while other traditions' failures stay quiet? And how do personal wounds, the cold church that dismissed your experience or the one that manipulated your trust, quietly harden into theology?

Join us for an episode on how we can better see each other's point of view and how to find common ground as Christian brothers and sisters in the continuationist versus cessationist debate.

PART 1 EPISODE:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JDmzY30Ddl4

Join Joshua Lewis, Michael Miller & Michael Rowntree for RemCon "Prophecy & Hearing God's Voice" October 1-3 | Houston, TX

Learn more & register: https://www.theremnantradio.com/remnant-fall-conference-2026

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:47

Hey everybody, welcome back to the wonderful world of Remnant Radio. In this episode, we're talking about how sometimes continuationist and cessationist misrepresent each other. It's gonna be an interesting program. You guys stay tuned. Hey guys, thank you so much for tuning back into this episode of Remnant Radio. My name is Joshua Lewis. I am joined today with my co-host Michael Miller. Uh and soon, Michael Roundtree will be back from sabbatical. So we'll be able to uh have the three amigos back once again, the three blind mice, uh, the three musketeers, I don't know, whatever threes we've got. Um, but we've got an interesting program for you today. We're talking about cessationism and continuationism. I suppose before I do that, and before I intro Michael Miller, I want to remind you guys that we do have a conference. So if you're like, hey, theologically, you know, I'm I'm probably not cessationist. I'm more open to spiritual gifts, but I've never seen them demonstrated. I'd like to learn about the stuff in a healthy and safe environment. I'd encourage you to go check out the remnant conference. Here's a quick promo for that coming up real soon. I suppose I should be talking about this as the music plays because there's no audio attached to it. Uh but yeah, remnant conference is October 1st through the third. They're in Houston, Texas, at uh well, it's in the woodlands if you're in that specific area. They're at uh uh Woods Edge Church. There's so many churches we're working with. I'm trying not to say Foothill, uh Foothills Church. I'm not trying not to drop the wrong name. Uh anyway, we've got uh a really great time there, October 1st through the third. We're gonna be talking about prophecy and hearing God's voice. Uh, we're gonna have demonstration. Uh we're gonna have time for, I mean, I see demonstration. If the Lord grants the gift, we'll have time for a demonstration, uh, some really fun teaching and uh a great opportunity to hang out with like-minded believers. Okay, without further ado, Miller, how are you doing over there in Denver, Colorado, buddy?

SPEAKER_00 2:34

I'm good, man. Uh, I just got back from being at a church out in Chicago. Actually, Josh, you and I went to this church uh a couple years ago. Remember the lady I prayed for who had the um that back issue. She had surgery, had infection, just 20 years of back pain, and ended up casting a demon out of her, and she was set free. And so I got to see her again. She's been set free ever since, no more back pain. Um, and then went to Nashville, and you guys can get look forward to this uh upcoming uh things. Um I just did a podcast with John Moffat from Theocast, uh, on Theocast, um, talking about the gifts of the spirit and just sort of theologically uh some of the misconceptions he had and um helping him understand where we come from as continuationists. He's been historically on the cessationist side. And then um I did a uh podcast with the blurry creatures. And so that I don't know when that's gonna come out. That may be a few months out because Luke Rogers is about to have his third baby. So um they've got a bunch of things in the can uh from guys like myself. So anyway, pretty cool.

SPEAKER_01 3:35

Yeah, doing your podcast rounds. That's fun, man. Hey, uh, someone left a comment in here. Uh, I want to talk about comments for a second. Uh, we turn on a feature on our YouTube videos, which requires you to subscribe for your comments to be visible. So uh unfortunately, that subscription feature will only work uh in I think 24 hours after subscribing, so that someone can't just hit subscribe, make a comment, and then unsubscribe or whatever. Uh trying to build a really healthy community of individuals. So, and then also you get updated when we produce content like this. So we'd encourage you, subscribe to the channel uh so that you can engage with us in the comment section. But uh the reason I bring that up is that Ozzie Smith just mentioned uh her son, Lucas, was diagnosed with neuroblastoma and surgery is tomorrow to remove part of a tumor. So you guys be praying for them. Uh that's worth mentioning. Uh man, anytime anyone gets sick, it's not fun, but especially when it's our kids. Uh so if you're watching, if you're out there on the interwebs, uh man, toss up a prayer for Lucas. We don't want that surgery to go well and pray that the Lord heal him. Uh okay, Michael, today we're uh picking up a conversation we had last week. You don't have to have watched that episode to know what we're talking about, this episode. But I overstated, I got a little bit over my skis in saying that cessationists believe uh that all of the spiritual gifts have ceased. And that is an overstatement by a lot. Justin Peters called me out, and rightfully so. Um, if he were to press me or even sit next to me and ask me, Josh, is that really what cessationists believe? I would have said, no, that's not what cessationists believe. Uh, cessationists believe that certain supernatural sign gifts, particularly those sign gifts of an apostle, have ceased. So I accidentally misrepresented my cessationist brothers. Miller jumped on and said, Hey, you guys often misrepresent us. Let's not pretend like the shoe's not on the other foot. And uh anyway, so we're trying to discuss why is this the case that we so frequently misrepresent, misunderstand one another. And today we're just picking up that conversation where we left it off. Miller, it sounded like I lost you there for a second. Are you back, bud? Oh, but you're muted. You're muted. You're still muted. Says guest has muted themselves. This is unfortunate. Um, Michael? No. Well, this is great, guys. Uh, we'll we'll see if I can carry the show until uh Miller figures out what's going on with his microphone. Uh, Miller, if it's helpful, man, it just says that you have muted yourself. So I don't know if there's a mute button on screen or on the microphone. This is the uh the situation that you get into when you do live videos. Uh fortunately, we can cut it out all in post. I'll give you a quick recap on what we've covered thus far as Miller tries to figure out his problems here. Uh, we talked about last week uh different types of theological streams, how, man, a lot of the charismatic continuationist movement comes from an Armenian stream, which is going to focus a lot on personal responsibility and a holiness tradition, uh, a lot of free will emphasis that has been taking place there. Whereas Calvinists often come, and these are big broad brushes on both sides, Calvinists often come for from, I'm sorry, cessationists often come from Calvinistic streams. Those kind of Calvinistic streams are often more um uh higher view of sovereignty and what Christ has accomplished, not necessarily what is your personal responsibility. Now, again, I'm not speaking that Calvinists have no vision of what our responsibility is. Cessationists don't care about what we're supposed to do and participate in. That's not the case. Again, that's too broad of a brush. I'm just speaking in terms of emphasis. Your Arminian camps that are more continuationist are going to emphasize more personal responsibility and act of holiness and the power of God in that sense. And then on the other end, uh, the power of God is emphasized over God's sovereignty and his control of all things. That often causes an initial breach in communication where continuationists and cessationists have a hard time understanding one another. Uh, another example of where we often uh misunderstand each other is in suspicion and motive. Uh, a lot of continuationists look at cessationists as kind of brains on a stick, just theology, um, but but they don't, they don't really want to grapple with anything that's going to change their, their, their vision of what things are. There's a suspicion that, man, cessationists really just want to control things. They want to be a wet blanket, they don't want to embrace the work of the Holy Spirit. And on the other side, the cessationists often look at the charismatics and say, hey, look, uh, we have suspicion of you guys. You guys are grifters. These apostolic sign gifts have ceased. So every time that you're claiming any kind of signed wonder or miracle, well, that must be a fabrication that you're, you know, kind of uh putting on a show uh to kind of your own uh uh for your own purposes, for your own vanity, uh, but not necessarily for the cause of Christ. Uh Miller is called back in, so I'm gonna see if his mic works now. You're back in. No. You're in. No, you're in. I can hear you. Okay. I can hear you.

SPEAKER_00 8:15

Uh all right. Sorry about that, Josh. I know I think when I mute it from my mic, it doesn't, it just stays locked like that. So I'm just not gonna touch that button right there.

SPEAKER_01 8:23

Okay. Well, I apologize from instructing you to do that. I told him to mute his mic so it doesn't clack on the keyboard. Um so I'm gonna run through uh these real quick. I did again, uh we have different theological streams. There's a suspicion of motive that often comes up. And then where we landed last week is we typically judge each other by our worst and not by our best. Uh, I find that the cessationists will look over at the continuationist and they'll look at the Benny Hens, they'll look at the Kenneth Copelands, they'll look at the Creflow dollars, the Jesse Duplantis's, and they'll say, hey, look, this is the charismatic movement. This is, there are the ones on TV, they're the ones with the big footprint that are reaching lots and lots of people, the destiny images, the daystar television networks, the TBNs, and they'll go, hey, look, uh, we're gonna find the most extreme example of the charismatic movement here, and then paint the whole movement as if they're that. Um, and I would argue that, man, a good chunk of what we were defining as a word of faith space, which has been denounced by a good chunk of the uh denominations within Pentecostalism, but certainly the continuationists at large don't necessarily ascribe to those sorts of things, while recognizing that many of those doctrines and beliefs kind of seep into the movement. And on the other side, you know, the continuationists look at the cessationists and say, hey, look, uh I've watched a video of a really angry heretic hunter, um, you know, uh despise a person I actually care for quite a bit and speak pejoratively towards them. Um, ultimately, not because they've done anything wrong, but because they're doing what they believe and praying for the sick, uh practicing the gift of prophecy, and they've been maligned as grifters. Um, so I think we're often judging each other by our worst, not by some of our best. Um, and that's kind of where we left off last week. And we can dive into this program this week. Miller, I've monologued quite a bit, but uh man, jump right in.

SPEAKER_00 10:56

Sure. I mean, I'm I I don't I don't think I have anything more really to add to that particular topic. I don't, I mean, I I I asked, I was kind of curious though, Josh, do you think we actually are we reading the worst of continuationists? I know that some I remember uh sorry of cessationists. I remember somebody faulted me for uh criticizing something R. C. Sprawl said about cessationism, and they're like, well, he doesn't represent the best best of us. I'm like, well, maybe not. Uh who who represents the best of cessationism?

SPEAKER_01 11:24

It's a really good question. Um, I think it assumes, well, here's the thing. I I think that it's our responsibility to recognize one, continuationists are not monoliths, and cessationists are not monoliths. And I think that it you have a personal responsibility in some sense to um to be charitable. Um again, you you might find that, hey, the Justin Peters are your version of cessationists that you really like. Um, I'm gonna look at the folks like an R.C. Sproul. I'm gonna look at folks like um, you know, a Jeff Durbin, I'm gonna look at folks like James White, and I go, I like those cessationists. I I they have a vision of a very mystical, magical sort of, and magical, it's not a word a lot of people are gonna like, but they have this vision of a supernatural world where God is sovereign and he can break in and he can do supernatural things. They just don't call those spiritual gifts that they would view as maybe something that's more normative and that they believe has no longer, you know, been active. Uh, but I'm I'm looking for what I'm looking for the best of cessationists. I'm I'm looking for even, you know, even-handed, not extremely harsh, not speaking in broad brushes, trying to be careful with their speech. Um, all of us are gonna slip up with our speech. I I think that what you're looking for is people who are trying to be careful and precise in what they're combating. Uh, I think when I hear a continuationist say, you know, I'm not gonna read I've literally heard a continuationist say um at a at a youth camp, I'm not gonna read Charles Spurgeon. I know God better than him because I speak in tongues. And I'm like, oh no. Uh, you know, just the idea that I have the Holy Spirit, Spurgeon didn't have the Holy Spirit because he didn't speak in tongues. Um, I I go, wow, that's that's the worst of us. Um, so I wouldn't want someone taking that line and thinking that all charismatics believe that. Um, so I look over on the flip side and go, okay, um, what what would I want people to look for in my camp and and try to judge the other side in that same in that same way? Um broad brushes aren't helpful.

SPEAKER_00 13:20

Totally. All right. You want to get in the next category then on how we miss each other? Okay. The next one has to do with uh confusion of category. So um in Justin Peters' expand uh exchange, uh that's proof of the point. Cessationism isn't a monolith. Um, but he said, I don't know any cessationist who thinks this, uh, and I go, Well, I don't think that's true. There's a number of cessationists who believe different things about the gifts of the spirit and about power. On one occasion, you may run into a cessationist who says, No, God is not doing those things today. And I say that because I was actually in a church in high school where I was told when I asked, um, first, you know, I was a 15-year-old, 16-year-old started going to church, and I asked, like, when do we get to see the miracles that we see in the gospels? And he says, Well, God is not doing that today. He represented cessationism. Now, granted, he came out of Dallas Theological Seminary. I don't even know if Dallas Theological Seminary would hold that position of God not doing those miracles today, but there is again a confusion of uh category. I think it also works on the other side with uh cessationists and their their definition um or how they would categorize uh continuationists when it comes to the gifts of healing. They would say, Hey, if you've got a gift of healing, go empty out the hospitals. Well, they're defining as gift gift of healing as operating on command, like you can do that whenever you choose to do so. But Josh and I would both go, I don't know. I mean, a large swath of charismatics would not agree with that definition of gift of healing and in within continuationism. They would say, No, it's never been on command, it's always uh a co-laboring with Christ, and God is sovereignly determining who He decides to heal, and we're just participants of it, no different than we would say with evangelism. Uh, we can no longer we can't guarantee somebody coming to faith when we evangelize any more than we can guarantee someone getting healed when we pray for them to be healed. Um so I think there that would be an area of confusion and category.

SPEAKER_01 15:20

It's like the gift of teaching. I can explain it to you, I just can't understand it for you. Uh no, I wouldn't say that. Um that's a that's a low roast. Um when it comes to a confusion of category, this is something that's really interesting because the cessationist will say things like apostolic sign gifts. And the continuationist goes, Well, where'd you find that buddy? Um, and you know, they'll they'll they'll look to is it Second Corinthians, where you know, I uh signs of apostle were done among you, uh, where you know, uh signs and apostles were done among you. Um, and then it describes signs, wonders, and miracles in that passage in the NIV. But but Sam Storm's saying that the signs of an apostle were done among you and they were accompanied by signs, wonders, and miracles, not that the signs of an apostle were signs, wonders, and miracles. And he's done really good exegetical work on that that I would point people toward. Uh, but I think that's some of this is uh for a lot of cessationists, the definition of a spiritual gift requires some uh some ability to do this on command. And then the way that they define some spiritual gifts is that there are apostolic sign gifts, that only certain gifts are uh tied to the apostolic age. And they would typically look at gifts like healings, um, prophecy, miracle working, um I'm trying to think of others, tongue speech, anything that they would view kind of opens the canon and allows the canon to remain open if God is continuing giving revelation. Uh most cessationists, and again, I'm that's a broad statement, uh, is gonna argue that apostles and prophets laid the foundations of the church in Ephesians 2.20. And now that the foundation of the church has been laid, we have no longer any use for apostles and prophets. Um, so they're gonna see certain supernatural gifts that accompanied those individuals, um, but don't see those things as spreading to the larger body of Christ. Now, we would look at that and say, that doesn't really make sense. And then they start, you know, I think more careful assacialists are gonna be a little bit more particular. They're gonna say the apostles and those in close association with the apostles. And then I go, why, why do you why do you create that category? There's nothing in the text that says that. You know, Philip the evangelist goes out to Samaria and casts out demons, heals the sick, like performs what would seem to be supernatural activity. He runs along the Ethiopian eunuch after being translated in the spirit, uh, hears uh God speak to him from heaven. Um, so in all of those accounts, you have someone who is not an apostle at best, he's a deacon in the church doing those kinds of activity. Uh Paul says to the Church of Galatia uh in Galatians chapter three, um, Did you do mighty miracles by works of the law or hearing in faith? Or how does God do mighty miracles among you? Is it by works of the law or hearing through faith? That would suggest that the church of Galatia is performing some kind of spiritual gift, including miracle working, uh, there in their assembly. Paul gives instruction to the Church of Corinth about ailings and prophecies and tongues, and there's no necessary evidence that there's apostles there other than the super apostles that uh Paul condemns in 2 Corinthians. So I say all that to say that like that the cessationists have this category of what spiritual gifts are, and within the category of spiritual gifts that we can do on command, only a certain group can do these special ones. The continuationist goes, that's not a category. Like you're you're inventing categories that make you comfortable because if someone's prophesying, well, man, that's gonna get messy, and I don't really want that going on. So the continuationist again is reading into motive and saying, Well, you're really trying to control this thing. Um, this is what the Bible explicitly says that these gifts are going to continue. There's just been this uh age from the the the bring of the new covenant, signs, wonders, and miracles, acts two, Joel two, sons and daughters will prophesy until the coming of our Lord. Those are the end times. That's those are the ends of days, and he's gonna pour out his spirit on all flesh during that period of time. Why are you creating these category distinctions? And I so often we're using the same vocabulary, spiritual gifts, um, but we're using different dictionaries to define those terms. So we end up talking past one another all the time. So someone might say in a continuationist circle, well, I you know, I have the gift of healing, or my my buddy over there has the gift of healing. The cessationist here is, oh, you think you can do this on command? And they're going, no. You know, or in the the other guys, like, hey, you know, uh prophecy allows the continuation of the canon. We if if God is still speaking, we should just be adding to the Bible. The continuationist is on the other side going, wait, what? No, like we don't do that. Like, we don't believe that our prophetic speech is binding on the conscience. There was women and children prophesying in the book of Acts and prophesied in Joel 2. We're not saying that they get to write the Bible. No one's ever believed that. Why where did that come from? So there's these category distinctions where we end up speaking past each other using the same words but meaning different things.

SPEAKER_00 20:10

Um again, to be fair to the uh continue or cessationist side of things, when it comes to the category of sign uh gifts, um, I do find that there are some charismatics who use that expression of sign gifts. However, oftentimes they were people that came out of cessationism and into continuationism, and that's all they've known is that category. And so they'll say stuff like, No, that we believe, or at least today I believe that the signed gifts have continued. But they're also using a category that not all charismatics would agree even is a category. Um so you can see the the nature of the confusion here. There's there's uh a major failure to define your terms and speak uh within the same framework of categories in order to understand one another.

SPEAKER_01 20:57

So many charismatics don't have categories, and I don't I don't mean that to be like stories towards my brothers and sisters, but like I mean, how many of you and I could pull half a dozen books off of Destiny Images shelf, I would imagine. And there would be a distinction where they believe that the apostle and prophet are unique and have unique giftings and abilities that would give them a higher class and a higher status, which frankly feeds into the cessationist argument that you think that there's like, oh, you know, oh, you can add to scripture. Now, again, they're not gonna say that you can add to scripture, but they would believe there's a higher level of authority and ability to, you know, war with certain principalities and get super strategic powers from heaven in order how to conquer regions. So, like, uh I think in some sense we've we've created a large target. Um, and I say we, not you and I, but just continuationists in general, we do feed into some of it.

SPEAKER_00 21:48

I think what you're trying to say is there are continuationists that do have categories that cessationists would argue against, and they would be right to pigeonhole them with those categories because, like in the example you gave was the apostle prophet, but I would say the new apostolic reformation in general, they'll approach Ephesians 4, uh, the five gifts that are mentioned apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor, and teacher, and they'll say, Yeah, see, they think that those are um ecclesiological positions. You know, you have the uh office of the prophet, or you have the office of the apostle. And the tough thing is, is amongst the charismatics, there's a massive amount of disagreement. There are charismatics like myself that do not believe in the new apostolic reformation. And when we approach the uh passage Ephesians 4, I would look at it and I would say, those are called guests of the Spirit, not offices given by the Spirit. And so you have a category of disagreement even amongst charismatics, which makes the conversation all that much more complex and confusing.

SPEAKER_01 22:48

Yeah, that's right. And I would encourage charismatics to find some categories because again, I I think some people have this aversion to like, oh, I don't want to be religious, I don't want to, I don't want to, you know, be super heady because I'll quench the spirit. And just go, look, um, for people, all the continuous that I was around that were even very anti-cessationist were very compassionate towards cessationists. They were very like, oh, I wish they could see. I mean, I remember I've heard dozens of people, uh I bet quite a few. I'm trying to think of how many people I've heard, but dozens say things like, Oh, what if John MacArthur had an encounter with the Lord? Like, what a crazy charismatic he would be. Like they they had admiration for some of these guys because of the way they would teach the Bible. Um, and they were like, Oh, we would just we'd love to see this from them. And uh, it wasn't a hostility, it wasn't an anger towards them. But I think that this is one area where I I hope Internet Radio can help to say we need to be careful in our theological vocabulary if we're gonna strive for unity, if we're gonna strive for uh reaching across the aisle, because if we keep using sloppy language, it's gonna be a stumbling block for our brothers and sisters on the other side who are very particular about speech and categories and doctrines. Um so I think we need to catch up if we're going to win over our brothers and sisters to what I think is more accurately uh what the teacher, the scriptures are teaching. Um so so I think those categories are extremely important for us.

SPEAKER_00 24:10

You know, it's interesting, Josh. This is um a fruit of the time I spent with John Moffat out in um in Nashville, or I guess the Franklin or that area in Tennessee. Um, one of the things we talked about was extra-biblical practices that are often practiced in various denominations, whether it be liturgical churches like Catholicism or uh Anglicanism or even evangelicals, we all have a number of practices that aren't necessarily um perfectly rooted in scripture. Like the way that we take communion today with a small wafer and a small amount of juice, um probably not the way they did it in the early church. They were probably eating a full meal and there was probably real wine being served. Um, but the point is uh we were talking about whether or not certain practices that are extra biblical or different don't fit perfectly within the Bible, if those practices should be uh binding on the conscience. And it's interesting when you think about this debate, because uh just in the category of prophecy and how we would define it differently, you and I, we would give prophetic words. We would say that those words are not binding on the conscience in the same way that scripture is. Um, whereas the cessationists would look at us and say, hey, you should make that binding on the conscience if it's truly uh from God. And so again, we're we're working, we're speaking past each other here. Um, but I actually find that helpful. Like charismatics in general, it would be helpful for you uh to adopt that as a category as well. What is the practice that we have that we incorporate in our community and in our practice when it comes to various gifts that aren't necessarily explicitly spelled out in scripture to do? Uh are those things uh shouldn't we can uh encourage people that when we have a practice, that this is not a practice that is binding on the conscience because the scriptures do not require it to be so. Whereas the regular attendance of uh the local assembly, the regular taking of communion together, the regular teaching of the word, these would be actions and practices that we would say are binding on the conscience. All of us uh I can say the word you should do these things. Whereas other things I could say, you can do this, but it's not required. Does that help, Josh?

SPEAKER_01 26:23

Yeah, no, I think so. Um, you know, with with the prophecy piece, you know, we've done this before, we've talked a little bit about this. It can be hard to make sense of this. What we would say is what I prophesy over an individual shouldn't be binding on their conscience necessarily. I think when when the word of the Lord is confirmed, like you know this is God, this is the problem with prophecy, is that uh every prophecy is to be tested and weighed. Um, the others are to weigh and judge what is being said. And if you get one word, I don't think that you need to jump up and act on said word. I think you need to pray and uh wait for confirmation within the covenant community. And and if and when that happens, and you're like, man, I'm confident this is God. Um, I have multiple attestations to it, there's evidence that can prove that this is the Lord. Um, then I would say like, don't disobey the Lord, but I still think that it's functioning on a different way that scripture that is binding on all people everywhere, than man being led to do something individually. Um you would want to obey that, I think. But we've we've tackled that in the past, just for the sake of people who haven't seen that episode. Um I would say another area that we can move to if if you're willing to, Miller, uh, is that of experience um and and our look at experience as an evidential marker. So every continuationist I know personally um would say my experience, if it is in line with scripture, is a an additional evidence, but it is not a it is not a supreme evidence in that sense. It doesn't reign over scripture, um, it is next to scripture. I I would hear charismatics my entire time uh in the Pentecostal circles say things like, um uh, you know, I had this experience of tongues, I had this experience of healing, I had this experience of prophecy. Look, that's exactly what we saw in scripture. They would also say things like, if anyone talks about an experience that is anti-biblical, that is a prophecy that commands you to do something that's not in the Bible, uh, a healing that's practiced in a kind of super, you know, mystical sort of way with candles and seance kind of environments, like obviously we're not doing that because that violates the scripture. So the experience is what's reigning over with the scripture isn't raining, reigning over uh the experience is not reigning over the scripture. It's the scripture is supreme and a secondary evidence can be this. So, like uh if if I was to convict someone in a trial, um a you know, uh exhibit a sort of evidence might be a camera footage of them committing the crime. Now, a secondary piece of evidence, which you know uh may not be as strong as the first piece of evidence, might be something to the effect of uh their alibi didn't check out. Um, you know, there's there's evidence that his phone was pinged in that general location. Is it evidence? Yes. Is it as concrete and objective and truthful and honest as uh and indicting as a video evidence? Well, no. And in that same way, we would say scripture is the supreme evidence while looking at his experience as a secondary piece of evidence. Whereas the cessationist will come on the scene and I and I again, I'm not trying to paint with broad brush, but I think that many cessationists are instantly throwing out all experience carte blanche as not admissible in court because it's a feeling, it's an experience, these things can be falsifiable. We're not going to tolerate any of this because, again, in their mind, they're holding scripture up high, and scripture would not allow us to view these spiritual gifts, which again, I think that that that belief system is built on a faulty premise that spiritual gifts have ceased, which I don't think you can prove from the scriptures. Um Miller, have I done uh a fair job assessing uh how we both uh approach experience on the cessationist and continuationist side?

SPEAKER_00 30:11

Yeah, well, I I think you've got um again on both sides of the argument, both with cessationist and with continuationist, uh, how to what degree they're going to allow experience to give evidence and to what degree they're gonna dismiss it, saying, well, that's just anecdotal, um, is going to vary. I think for some cessationists, they're going to allow room for uh anecdotal evidence to count as evidence, albeit not as much, just like a charismatic would. Um, but that's just not always uh clear, cut and dry. Um, and I would say when I was a cessationist, I would often tell people, your experience doesn't matter to me. What matters to me is what's in the text. And today I actually disagree with that. And I this this would be a great debate to have with a cessationist. To what degree should uh anecdotal evidence count as evidence? Um and I I mean, especially if it's an anecdotal evidence that's uh repeated. And so uh I think of the the scriptures themselves. Do do the scriptures allow for anecdotal evidence to count as evidence? Well, I think so. I think witness of the resurrection was an experience. Um Paul telling uh Thomas, you know, put your finger here, put your hand here. Um that was an anecdotal evidence of the resurrection. They saw him. Um, but then you've also got uh anecdotal evidence or experience counting as a correction for a misinterpretation of scripture. So the example I would have in my mind would be Peter and the trance that he has. Um he has a trance, it's an experience. Uh he tell the Lord tells him to you know kill and eat these unclean animals. He refuses to do that. The Lord says, Don't call what I've called clean unclean, and this happens three occasions. Okay, this is the Lord uh giving Peter an experience that's going to uh help him to reinterpret what he believed about the Gentiles coming into the new covenant that God had made with Israel. Well, I should say the new covenant that God was actually making with the world uh and not just Israel. And so his experience gave evidence and testimony, not just counting for his own uh understanding of scripture, but also it counted as evidence when the spirit fell on all of those gathered at Cornelius' home. Uh it gathered or it counted as evidence for the council in Jerusalem when Peter came back and brought back the report of what had happened. You know, they then decide like, oh, it looks like God is um extending this covenant and salvation to uh the pagan world.

SPEAKER_01 32:53

Um that's a really good point. Like arguing from scripture the what would be considered experiential sort of evidence, what would be considered what was the word that you used? Anecdotal evidence. Um that's really good.

SPEAKER_00 33:06

What degree anecdotal? Yeah, I I think I think the scripture gives precedent uh for anecdotal evidence to count. But I would also say that it's only to a certain degree and not to the same degree. Um, but but I think we're often talking past each other, not even weighing the question uh should anecdotal evidence count as evidence and to what degree? Uh and and if you want to have a good conversation, you should probably start there and agree on what the parameters of that should be.

SPEAKER_01 33:35

Well, I'll tell you one thing that's really interesting to me. Well, because well, Miller, you know, this would be a conversation that we you and I would probably have with a word of faith person who would claim that they've seen healings and they've seen prophecies. And I'm over here, depending on who I'm talking to, and go, preach a false gospel. You know, like so I'm like, you're how much does your experience, you know, inform some of this? And I go, oh, I don't know. Like that that would be an interesting, um it's an interesting thing when you've got orthodox doctrine. I do. I would see, I would well, not just problematic, like when God has become man, man has become God, uh, we have the authority to speak things into existence. Uh, between creator and creation. Say it again.

SPEAKER_00 34:17

Well, how you and I um I remember you used to be on the second blessing theology side of things, initial physical evidence. That was part of your Pentecostal packaging, right? Um, that's that that belief has shifted for you. But when you go to people when it comes and talk to them about what the scriptures have to say about second blessing or initial physical evidence, um, it it can be quite persuasive to on both sides. But the thing that I find uh many on those on the second blessing camp defaulting to is their experience first and then scripture, as opposed to scripture first and then experience.

SPEAKER_01 34:53

Uh and we we would affirm their experience, just say, Yeah, no doubt. I'm glad you had the experience, but I just think you're calling it the wrong thing. Like that's not what the Bible calls that. Um you keep using that word, it doesn't mean what you think it means.

SPEAKER_00 35:05

Um and we don't want to offend people by by by saying your experience didn't happen. Like I remember Dorian Virtue, right? She uh came out of the new age, and part of that was because she had an experience with the Lord that caused her to repent. Well, today she redefines that experience based on uh what she has learned in the cessationist camp, and they will tell her that this was not from God, that God didn't give her that experience, that it must have been from Satan. Um, and that to me, I'm just like, that's that's kind of egregious. That's not good. Um, I mean, here's the the other thing, and again, this is where we say that the categories matter, and anecdotal meta evidence should be at least a conversation should be had to what degree it should count as evidence. Because here's where we're going to offend one another is by telling people the experience that they had was either not real or not God. Um, and that's gonna cause people to be, as far as cessationists out there, that's gonna cause your charismatic brother to look at you and think, I don't want to listen to a thing you have to say because you have now dismissed something so incredibly precious to me.

SPEAKER_01 36:12

Yeah. Well, then you also have to acknowledge the elephant in the room, Miller used to do this all the time. Um, is we would hear these arguments where people would talk about, oh, you charismatics are basing everything on experience. Well, I'm a Christian, I love the Lord, I've prayed for dozens of people and they haven't been healed. And it's like, wait, are you are you basing what you believe off of your experience or your lack of experience? Right? Like this with the we would do the cessationist documentary, click by click reviews, and we'd we'd watch all of them and the amount of unintentional hypocrisy, and hypocrisy is a a hard word, but like um maybe it's the right word. It I don't think they realized what they were doing because in their mind, building uh theology around experience looked like, oh, I had this mystical thing, I'm gonna find it in the Bible. But for them, it was the opposite. It was, well, I don't have this experience, therefore I have to make sense of why I don't have this experience from the Bible. Um, and that is just the same problem. So I, you know, I say this again, tongue in cheek. One of the one of the reasons that the charismatics are and the cessationists are misunderstanding each other is because we don't know how to dialogue about our experiences in an intelligible way. One of the, I think really I looked for it the other day, I couldn't find it.

SPEAKER_00 37:29

Well, in a way, we should say not intelligible, but on common ground.

SPEAKER_01 37:33

Yeah, yeah, common ground is right. David Miller was talking to me and I asked him, Hey, did you ever watch the interview between Mark Driscoll and Doug Wilson on uh spiritual gifts? I I looked for that video. If you guys can find it, feel free to send it to me over Facebook. Um, but that's the video. That's the video. No, no, it wasn't Elephant in the Room. It was at Doug Wilson's church. Mark Driscoll just came out. They just started talking about spiritual gifts at some point in the in the QA. Um, and you know, Doug is asking him why he's a charismatic. And he goes, Well, this is what I believe. And he goes, Oh, that's interesting. And then he goes, Can you have can you explain some experiences where you've heard God speak to you? And he he gives a couple of anecdotal experiences. Doug goes, huh. As you mentioned that, I had an experience one time where, you know, I'm reading through, I was counseling a woman who's being very difficult in church, and she was doing this problem or that problem. She was joining this cult, and I was trying to get her not to join this cult, and she wouldn't be reasoned with. And then I was reading through a passage of scripture, and it talks about, you know, these false teachers who lure people away to commit sexual immorality. And he saw that and he goes, Second I saw that, I just knew somehow I knew that I had a supernatural knowing that I believe was given to me by God, that like this woman was having an affair with the cult leader. And then when I confronted her about it, it ended up being true. She she was, and she was being seduced into a false teaching because of this sexual immorality. And he just, it just came to him, he just knew it. And then you you see uh Mark Driscoll go, hey buddy, like uh come out of the closet. It sounds like you're charismatic. Like he's he's picking on his friend, but like I think when we start having a conversation about some of those experiences, we actually find that there's a lot more common ground. We're just using different words to describe those experiences, much like I would affirm a Pentecostal's second blessing experience, while also saying, I think that's not what it's called. Um, so I I think that matters.

SPEAKER_00 39:25

Yeah, you uh you're hitting on a really great point. One of the things that um you and I both were like kind of scratching our head at was listening to Jeff Durbin tell the story about his son and the experiences that he had. And he just didn't call it a prophecy, like he would call it he had a dream, but but even then it's like it there's some cognitive dissonance there. If I were a cessationist where I'd be scratching my head, going, This doesn't add up. Um, but for him, that was totally within the framework of his cessationism, which goes to show you when people talk about cessationists, they're not always rightly representing guys like Jeff Durbin, who tells a story that you and I would call a prophetic experience, but from his perspective, it was just not that. Um, and you should go listen to that. You guys can look it up. This had to do with uh his son who was born and the naming of his son and God giving him that name through a dream. Um, I think I'm missing something, Josh.

SPEAKER_01 40:18

You might be able to clarify, but the the child was also gonna be born with like spinal bifida, and he had some confidence that the baby was gonna be born completely healed. Um, the baby was also uh someone else's baby. The baby was up for adoption, and him and his wife are on the way home. Uh, should we adopt this baby? And like, oh, we've had so many, like, I don't know if this one's ours. And then there was a discussion. If we adopted him, I want to name him Augustine. And oh, then we'd probably name him August. And then people would come to him with dreams and saying, like, hey, you adopted this baby, and his name was August. And like they had special knowledge. And you know, for Jeff, he's like, Look, God's sovereign, he can do what he wants. And I just I have so much um just assurance and commonality and comfort for my brothers and sisters on the cessationist aisle when I hear them talk that way, which is not like someone came to them and said, I think you're supposed to adopt this baby, and his name is Augustine. That they instantly go, You got that from a demon who's sitting in my car, listening to my conversation, because God doesn't speak anymore. They like have more confidence that demons speak than God, or or you know, hey, repent of this. Like, we're not gonna add this to the Bible. Like he didn't blow up Adam. He would just say, Yes, God, your servant is listening, you know, and was just attentive to uh obeying the voice of a shepherd, which is promised to us in John 10. So I go, hey, I I think this is good. I think this is what the Lord intends for his people. And I think the vast majority of cessationists are probably in that camp. Um, they're in that, hey, we live in this magical mystical world where God can break in and do great things because he's still alive and active and super involved. Most cessationists aren't these like Christian deists who are like, here's the mission, guys, good luck. Um, I think personally, uh, I think there is a sliver of cessationists that kind of have a more deistic worldview, unfortunately. Uh, but even them, they would deny that. But functionally, it looks like that to me. It's just me misrepresenting a few of them, but you know, whatever.

SPEAKER_00 42:10

Uh let's move on. Let's talk about the next category. Um, asymmetry of outliers and how they get exposed. So um, this is true in the charismatic world because there isn't much in the way of denomination outside of Pentecostalism. Most charismatic churches that are being planted today are often non-denominational, they are often uh independent completely. And so there's a lot more room for outliers and those who might practice things that the vast majority of charismatics would disagree with, but they also are the ones who get a lot of attention. And so when it comes to how a cessationist might evaluate a charismatic, they'll often point out the outlier. I think this can also go both ways. I think there are outliers amongst cessationists that even in within movements. Like I would imagine amongst the cessationists, Joel Webbin, uh, who we knew um he would be an outlier for most cessationists. Most cessationists wouldn't want Joel Webin to represent them. Same thing with Doug Wilson, uh, especially today. And so there is uh that tendency in both sides. I think it's more common amongst charismatics because we tend to have less um less of an ecclesiological structure that is uh denominational and or movement uh related. Um but but both sides end up having those outliers get the attention and then get typecast because of those outliers.

SPEAKER_01 43:37

Well, there's also, I think, a huge expectation on the other's part of how they handle those things. So uh in particular from the cessationist crowd toward the continuationist crowd, um, you have a continuationist who plants a church. They didn't have a sending body. They they were just a business guy, someone who went to an unaccredited Bible school who just really loves Jesus. And, you know, they've got this charismatic personality. Yeah, they they've read some books on church growth. So they've built this church, it grows pretty quick. You know, it's got hundreds of people at it. Year later, two years later, it's got a thousand people, two thousand people at it. So they they don't just stop there because they want to reach as many people as possible. So start writing a book, they jump on a podcast, they get a television show, and they're reaching the four corners of the earth, and then there's some kind of big moral failure. Well, the way that they got into ministry didn't involve anyone else. There was no governing body, there was no denomination. Um, the way the church was set up, well, this guy's always done it. You know, he's kind of the leader at the top. So, man, in a whole lot of continuationist spaces, there is just not a ton of accountability because it's not structured by some kind of denominational head. And then you have to expect that a leader who has power is going to hold themselves accountable and set up a structure that's going to keep themselves accountable. And if we're just gonna be honest with human nature, that is not just a thing that lots of us sign up for. Um, I think it's right. I think we should do it. I should, I think we should strive to do that. Um, but it's not human nature. And I think a lot of the charismatic movement, um, we have more outliers than the cessationist movement, probably because there's not checks and balances. You know, you got a Steve Nichols, I think it was Steve Nichols who got no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Steve Nichols is a saint. He's um he's took over for RC Sprole. The other guy that was in Dallas, um Lawson, Steve Lawson, thank you. I almost accidentally bespurched a man.

SPEAKER_00 45:30

Yeah, who was asked to speak at a conference and there was a major outcry, and then they removed him from this conference, apparently. This was like a recent thing, too. Oh

SPEAKER_01 45:38

Lawson?

SPEAKER_00 45:39

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 45:40

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I was just gonna say, like, yeah, Steve Lawson, yeah, he had a scandal and his church quickly removed him. And and you know, G3 made a public statement. And, you know, like they they took care of it quick. It was like, we have the systems in place for this. Like we we're gonna hold this guy accountable. And like you said, try to get back into doing some ministry stuff, it sounds like I don't I don't know anything about that story. Um, but they have structures in place and standards in place, whereas a lot of the charismatic space doesn't have those structures. So it can look like from the cessationist space that the charismatic world is just the wild ball of the west and you can do whatever you want because we don't have those necessary bodies to govern. Uh, and it just looks like sexual immorality everywhere.

SPEAKER_00 46:19

We we kind of do agree with someone, yeah. It's a very fair criticism. It's not when you're over charismatic. You and I both have uh a lot of accountability and ways of holding us accountable as well as other elders in our churches, but it is the Wild West out there, and it's actually one of the reasons why I think Mike Winger's exposures are happening. Um, and it's largely being charismatic churches that are targeted, and by Mike's admission, it's because they don't have structures to hold these leaders accountable. Um, so if there is a criticism on that end, I think it's it's a massive one. Um, but the problem is it ends up causing people to use that as an argument against charismaticism rather than use it as an argument against bad ecclesiology.

SPEAKER_01 47:03

And it's well, you know, every charismatic church I've ever gone to, you have preachers preach against sexual immorality every time. And but I think what the problem is, is it's like what you see is you see the cessationists go, Oh, you guys tolerate all this sexual immorality. And I think in one sense, you go, Well, you got the Todd Bentleys, you've got uh, what is it, uh uh Barcus Slam, who Mike Bickle, Michael Brown, I mean, all these guys committed adultery, like all of them. So it's like, and and then to varying degrees, but like still, they they were not faithful. Um, and you you tolerate this. And then the charismatic who has been going to a charismatic church, who's heard Bickle preach against sexual immorality, goes, No, we don't tolerate it. In fact, we we fight against it. Um, we we've been saying this for years and for decades, and you're you're painting us with a broad brush because of our outliers. The problem is that we have more outliers than others because of our structure. So the cessationist is not wrong in saying, hey, you have all this problem. They're not wrong, but but I think they are wrong painting the whole movement as a movement that tolerates it. Most of them don't even know. Um, I it seems to me that when the Bigel stuff was public, IHOP itself wanted um the white blood cells to to take care of this and deal with the situation, but they just didn't have access to it. Um, so my my general take from IHOP was that the people there felt deeply betrayed and wanted to fight against this. Um so I don't know. I I I look at all these sorts of things and go, man, we're we're mischaracterizing each other because of our systems and structure.

SPEAKER_00 48:35

Yeah, it's just a as a argument alongside what you just said, the fact is it wasn't necessarily yes, cessationists may have been out there speaking against Mike Bickle and a number of others, but their voice gets lost. And the reason why is because of the typecasting. And the ones who actually managed to get Mike Bickle exposed, as well as other charismatic leaders, have usually been those with inside those movements who are also charismatics. In fact, the vast majority of testimonies that Mike Winger has collected that have exposed some of the people he has exposed have come from within and were also charismatic. So I think that's just a when it comes to saying like statements like, well, they tolerate sexual immorality, it's like, well, no, that's not entirely true. Um that's right. I can see why they might think that.

SPEAKER_01 49:20

Yeah, so let's let's look at this the this one here. Um when it comes to wounding in particular, um, I I think this is gonna be a real thing on both sides because we we've all met a a person who's come from like a Lutheran or Presbyterian church. They were really hurt by something that happened there. And then they come into our church, and if they see any kind of liturgy, it's like that hurt me, right? Like that's that's an evil structure, that's an evil system. And we carry a lot of our wounds into churches, like a kid who grew up in a two-parent household, but dad was always beating mom and doesn't want to get married when they grow up. They're taking their trauma into another experience, assuming it's gonna be the same way. Um, and and I think that that happens in both continuationist and cessationist spaces, where you'll have people in continuationist churches that were just zero break, zero airbag, 100% foot on the gas, pedal to the metal sort of situation, and lots of damage took place there. And then you've got on the other side of the coin, you've got people who are in cessationist churches who begin to have experiences they weren't even looking for. And then people tell them in those churches, oh, you're demonized, oh, that's not real, oh, that's not God, oh, you're deceived. Um, and they run out of those cessationist spaces. Um, so I think we take so much of our pain from our prior experiences into interpreting everything we see moving forward. If I've had some really abusive relationships with cessationists, you know, I from there assume that all the other cessationists are like that. Um, the same is true of complementarians, the same is true of Calvinists, the same is true of um, you know, all across the board. If you had bad experiences with egalitarians and they're all low, woke, liberal, you know, gay affirming uh individuals, you're just gonna assume every egalitarian is the same. And if the complementarian you knew was a chauvinist, well then all complementarians must be chauvinist. And I just think that that kind of lens lends itself, if that's a double play on words there, lends itself for us misrepresenting and misunderstanding one another. And I I think this one's serious, man. I think, I think a good chunk of cessationists misrepresenting us and us misrepresenting them um has to do with these kinds of wounds.

SPEAKER_00 51:31

Uh so you're saying that the wounds themselves serve as motivation for misrepresentation. Is that accurate?

SPEAKER_01 51:37

Uh I would say motivization motivation, but also just an assumption, you know, like if you've been hurt by a church and it's happened three times, you just assume that churches hurt people and church isn't a safe place. So it maybe it's a justification. A motivation on one side, oh, I can say whatever I want because these people are the worst. And then um that's a that's a motivation, but then a justification of like, oh, well, I know what cessationists are like, I've met them, right? But it's like not everyone, right? You've just met some of them, and that's just been your experience. So you can justify lumping all these people in, but also it encourages you to do that sort of thing. Um both sides.

SPEAKER_00 52:13

Let's let's get personal here. Uh, have you ever experienced hurt from cessationists? And if so, uh, did that cause you to lump them together in a certain way?

SPEAKER_01 52:23

Uh I think this is why I have a ton of grace for cessationists, because any personal interaction I've had with cessationists have always been deeply enriching and helpful for me. Um, I don't, I can't think of a single time where a cessationist, like, you know, I was raised in Pentecostal churches. Um, by the time I had like good relationships with cessationist folks, you know, I'd been doing the podcast for a while, you know, I was a young adult around that time, you know, starting to read books. So I had some theological traps. So I'd have conversations with them, and they were always really iron-sharpening iron. They never, you know, uh suspicious of my motives. They were like, hey, we think you love the Lord, we think you've got some good doctrine. They would, I mean, we would have really good, robust theological conversations. So I I think it's the reason why I'm extremely kind and generous to folks that other people are upset with me for being so kind toward. Um, because I I think maybe it's painting my experience of them in a positive light. You know, I would imagine you and Round Tree probably have had different experiences being raised in cessationist churches. Um I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 53:32

Yeah, uh that that is an interesting thing. So for me, for sure, I when I became a Christian, I was 15 years old and I was immediately inducted to a cessationist uh camp. And it was later on in having um some questions about how evangelism was to be done. I was a young life guy, so relational evangelism was my method, my modus operandi. And I began to question that my senior year in college, you know, looking at the scriptures at how people got converted. And you know, you see 4,000 people come to the Lord one day because of a miracle that took place. Uh the apostle Peter prays for a man who's paralyzed. And I'm going, well, well, why not Brian High School where I'm doing young life? And that question was often met by people in cessationism, which is the only people I had around me, uh, with great deal of concern. Uh, concern that I was like going off the deep end. And um, and the funny thing was I was appealing to the text. I'm going, but look what this says. Um, and so uh, you know, having my own character, my own motivation get questioned, um, and then having an experience and having that experience often dismissed, or the the typecasting I would hear that would also cause me problems is like um I started reading Jack Deere's book, and uh so I had a cessationist because Jack's son had died from a drug-induced suicide. They said, you know, immediately when I brought up reading his book and how I received benefit from that book and how it was make helping me make sense of like what why God is doing those things today. Um, somebody cast aspersions on him. And you know, as soon as I mentioned his name, they brought forward the fact that his son had committed suicide, but they left the details out, and it sort of was like, Yeah, I don't know if you can really trust Jack Deere because of this. I mean, that's a really egregious sin. And of course, this was a guy who was coming out of DTS, uh, he got his degree from there and was a pastor in the Dallas Fort Worth area. And so I saw a lot of like really horrible, harmful uh statements made. And I was I was pretty disgusted by that. Um, I was just shocked that people would go that low and and uh to discredit him. Um yeah, I had a number of of those kind of experiences that that made me go, gosh, man, cessationists are mean spirited. At least that's how I felt. But it was also the camp I came from, and um I wasn't met with much uh grace and or um you know uh honesty when it comes to the questions I was asking. They assumed there was more going on with me than me just simply going, Well, the text says this. Um yeah, and then also with young life, uh part of the reason I left Young Life was because I was being told I shouldn't be practicing these things or teaching these things to to the Young Life kids. Um and you know, I wouldn't even necessarily teach them per se, but I was told you got to teach both sides, and so I did, but couldn't help the fact that the kids end up on my side as well. So I mean negative experiences, I don't know if they'd cause me to say wholesale, well, all cessationists are mean because I've had other uh cessationists that are great friends, um, and that I've received a great deal from. Um so yeah, it's not like uh it's not a monolithic experience for me, but it definitely was different than your own experience interacting with cessationists.

SPEAKER_01 56:42

But it just I I think about degrees here. So, like, okay, what happened to me? Zero bad experiences, or just by and large, very little, if any, right, bad experiences. You, maybe a few more, Jack Deer over here, right? Like terminated from his institution, you know, kind of blacklisted by all of his friends and scholars. The way that Jack talks about cessationists, bro, you'd think they were a communist, you know, like it's wild. Uh, he is he's very passionate about those cessationists, they just think they just do. Jack's always, I don't know, I don't know if he's always been, but you would know better. I think he's always been more of an abrasive personality type anyway.

SPEAKER_00 57:22

So uh Jack's Jack's always been more abrasive. I don't I regardless of whether it came from uh uh his cessationist uh experiences co-workers from DTS or others. I mean, it it was still gonna be abrasive. Um but yeah, and I don't know if I would say that about myself, but I mean again, I I just shared a couple of really bad experiences that that I mean, it's pretty gross.

SPEAKER_01 57:46

Um well, I mean, flip it flip the coin, you know, Justin Peters' experience of like his dad going to a word of faith televangelist lady who, well, hey, you got nice shoes on. How much money can you give to get a miracle for your son? Like, yep, I got zero I got I got zero problems seeing why he would feel some kind of way about that. Um, you know, you've got you and I Chris Rose some kind of way about that.

SPEAKER_00 58:09

We think that's disgusting. Of course. I mean, it's of course.

SPEAKER_01 58:11

No, I yeah, I want to burn the whole thing down with Justin Peters when I hear stories like that, you know. Um, and I say the whole thing, that space, that corner of the continuationist movement. Uh, and I'm trying, man. I you know, we I m made a video last week trying to tackle some word of faith um heresies that just weren't that weren't called word of faith, but clearly were um in in cracking the time code.

SPEAKER_00 58:34

And then you've got you're you're afraid you called them heresies. Did you mean yeah, you're not saying word of faith is heresy, you're saying those word of faith practices and beliefs were radical.

SPEAKER_01 58:43

Okay, this is such a okay, uh complicated rabbit trail.

SPEAKER_00 58:46

So it's I just I just don't want I don't want to hear I don't want word of faith people hearing you say they are heretics. I mean so you can move on. You don't have to go through the whole detail.

SPEAKER_01 58:56

Well, it it's worth it's worth noting for people who are hearing, uh, word of faith is not a denomination that has a set belief system. So there's lots of people that call themselves word of faith. They don't necessarily all believe the same thing.

SPEAKER_00 59:08

And again, there's someone also exists on a spectrum.

SPEAKER_01 59:11

It exists on a very large spectrum. So I have met people who would say, oh, I'm a word of faith guy, and I believe these things that Hagen taught. I disagree with this one, I disagree with that one, you know. And and when you really drill them on what is the definition of orthodox Christian doctrine, they check all the boxes. There are others, um, and it seems to be some of the most popular in the camp who who preach um another gospel. I can get into that, but I don't find the necessity to do that in this in this program.

SPEAKER_00 59:42

So I don't need yeah, I believe you. Yeah, I don't know. I'm saying it myself, so I don't need any justification for it.

SPEAKER_01 59:48

Yeah, so uh man, I just think that these personal wounds are are are moving from from both both camps here. Uh, you know, the I mentioned Justin Peters, the other one that I wanted to mention was like Chris Roseborough and the Latter Rain movement. Um, I think of uh who's the the Lutheran guy who uh uh Kozar, I just couldn't think of his name. Uh Steve Kozar, um, also I think had some bad experiences in charismatic spaces. So it's like I I I want to be compassionate to these guys, and I think Kozar, to be fair, is one of the more level objective of the group I just mentioned. Um, I I don't want to make it say sound like he's kinder. I just think he's clearer.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:30

Chris in person is kind, super kind. You have a conversation, yeah. I think I think it can be provocative online, probably more than he actually is in person. Yeah, I've heard I've heard the same thing about Justin. I've just never had a conversation with him.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:42

Yeah, and I I would I would imagine it's probably true across the board. I just think um I think that our well what I don't want to do on the charismatic side or on the cessationist side is have people say, oh, they're just bitter. That's why they hold these positions. No, I think they're emboldened because of these experiences, and I think they should be. That's a great way to phrase it. I like that I think for that's me speaking out about church abuse. That's right.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:08

I'm embolden because of my experience. It's not because I'm bitter.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:13

That's right. So so I don't want you to hear, oh, don't listen to these people because oh, they're just angry because they had a bad experience. No, that's not the case. Um, if anything, you should hear their experience, bite against the abuse they experienced so aggressively that they're won over by your good behavior. You know what I mean? Like if we were doing the right thing here and had been doing the right thing, we wouldn't have people who are over here with these feelings like take care of our own in that sense. Okay. Final point uh as it relates to this uh subject. Uh content and media incentivize, uh incentivizes and rewards the caricatures of one another. Um, you know, Matt Chandler will talk about the red meat, you know, when he's in his church. You know, like I live in Ada, Oklahoma. Oklahoma, uh, every single county in Oklahoma voted for Donald Trump. And I could get up there and I could preach against the woke agenda, and I could preach against abortion, and I could preach, and I do. I mention all those things when they come up in the text. Uh, I could preach against uh uh another like the closed border. Here's the thing everyone in my church already agrees with me. Like, well, am I just saying it to get the amens? Or like, you know, when it comes up the text, I have to mention the thing, right? So I'm doing that, but also am I intentionally wiring my sermons in such a way to just get the amen? And I do think that the algorithm actually promotes us as individuals to get our crowds to say hoop, yeah, hoop, hooray, and yeah, we agree. And if you've got a bunch of people who are hurt that come from different theological backgrounds, who have different ecclesiological systems that handle things in different ways. And instead of trying to be fair and careful, if you destroy the caricature that you you you go after the straw man and you burn him down, you get your your base going, yeah, woo-hoo. But we're not even talking to each other, trying to win each other over. We're really just kind of rallying our base of yes men who give us amens and make us feel good on the internet. Um that.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:04

Yeah, I don't have anything to add to that. I mean, yeah, it's true.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:08

Yeah, I it just happens. So we should stop doing that. We we try to not let the algorithm shape us. Um, unfortunately, it's it is the reality of the day we live in. Okay, guys, uh, we are at time. Thank you so much for tuning into this episode. If you're uh in the comment section, you're like, hey, why is my comment not showing up? We mentioned at the top of the show. We have uh set up a new feature on the podcast so that when we come out with content, those who are subscribed can engage with the content uh so that we don't have one, a whole bunch of trolls, uh, and then two, a whole bunch of spam accounts that are jumping onto the channel trying to leave uh fake and false posts. So uh hopefully this will mitigate some of that. Thank you guys so much for tuning in. Make sure to subscribe to the channel so you can engage with us in the comments below. And uh yeah, come out at the conference October 1st through 3rd. It'll be a lot of fun. See you guys later. See you next time.