Kathryn Krick: Ignite Revival or False Fire?

At Kathryn Krick's Houston book signing for "Ignite Revival," over 200 people showed up. Attendees ended up on the floor, shaking, weeping and convulsing, while Krick kept signing copies of her book and called it "revival." Plenty of people online are calling it staged or coercive. Instead of responding to the experiences, Joshua Lewis and Michael Rowntree read the book itself.

What they found was more like cultish language than Scripture-based teaching. Krick promotes a clear structure where apostles and prophets hold the greatest anointing, disagreement gets dismissed as "old wine," and readers are steered away from any teacher outside Krick's own lineage, a lineage she traces to her "spiritual father," Tanzanian prophet GeorDavie, not to ordination or accountability. 

Josh and Michael compare the book against Scripture, chapter and verse. They land on why this pattern isn't just concerning . . . Kathryn Krick is mark and avoid.

0:00 – Introduction
2:49 – Katherine Krick Book Overview
6:53 – Apostles Prophets Greater Anointing
16:42 – Prophetic Reward Prosperity Claims
22:16 – Five-Fold Ministry Holiness
38:44 – Discrediting Other Ministries
45:29 – Old Wine New Wine Doctrine
50:25 – Removing Disagreement Dissent
56:58 – Spiritual Buffet Isolation Tactics
1:03:06 – Katherine's Unique Anointing Claims
1:06:51 – Spiritual Father Pecking Order
1:17:33 – Closing Thoughts

PREVIOUS RR EPISODE ON KATHRYN KRICK:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_ifO5PX4NQ

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:47

Hey everybody, welcome back to the wonderful world of Remnant Radio. My name is Joshua Lewis, and today I'm joined with the uh famous and yet absent Michael Roundtree. Uh it's going to be an exciting program. We're going to be talking about Catherine Crick. If you don't know, uh Catherine has been uh on the interwebs here for uh quite a while. Uh we've done a recent video, I say recent, was it a year or two years ago, Michael, uh, where we first kind of made aware of her. People have been asking us to do content on her for uh over a year now. And with a recent kind of uh hoopla around a recent book signing where deliverances were taking place, uh, people have ran to the internet to make more response videos. And instead of uh making a carbon copy episode of those other episodes where we're talking about what's taking place at the book signing, we thought, hey, why don't we actually examine what's going on in the book itself? So we have scraped uh the book, uh, worked through it, read through it, tried to get the most convincing passages of that book to show you. I think once again that Catherine is setting up what would look like a cult to me. Uh, we've done another video, like I said, on Catherine, and that was the conclusion we came to then, uh, that she is very much insistent on staying submitted to the leader who's been placed over you and not to uh uh tolerate any kind of gossip or slander toward that leader. Uh, we have video after video of people uh essentially bowing down to her on stage and thanking her uh for being their spiritual mother and attributing to her scripture verses that are only given to Jesus, uh that she first loved them so that they can, you know, in response, love her. Uh anyway, it's some pretty gross stuff, but today we're tackling the book and the book only. But without further ado, I want to toss it over to my partner in crime, Michael Roundtree. You guys haven't heard from him in a hot minute, and I'm excited to have him back on the program. Michael, you're supposed to be on next week, but I called you out of retirement for this video. Thanks for jumping on, buddy.

SPEAKER_02 2:47

Yeah, absolutely. Hey guys, good to see you again, even though I can't see you at all. So uh it's been a great sabbatical three months. I'm feeling great, feeling ready to get by get back into the swing of things. Uh was like next week with Remnant, but uh he called me at the last minute, started screaming and cussing at me, telling me that I'd I'd better join him for this episode because he needed me. So yeah, actually he didn't cuss or nor did he scream, but uh he did need me. Uh Miller, apparently it's Miller's anniversary today, so uh so I'm hopping on a week early, so it's good to be with you guys and uh gonna talk a little bit about Catherine Cricks. So uh I think it's gonna be a good episode. Josh, uh, how do you want to start this episode out?

SPEAKER_01 3:36

Well, uh I probably want to start off just reminding people there's so much going on at Remnant here. Uh we had a whole bunch of technical difficulties today. So, Christina, if you're watching in this in the back end and you're like, hey, why didn't you play the video for the conference? It's because Michael Rantry hasn't used the internet since he's been on sabbatical and he forgot how to do it. So we spent uh we're we're a little bit late to the broadcast today uh because we were doing all the technical difficulties of getting him back on the internet. Um, he's still turning his own butter there in Oklahoma City. So we're trying to try to help him uh figure out how uh internet works. So uh just uh from word of mouth here, uh on August 16th, the early bird promo code for the conference is going to expire. So I would encourage people, if you're out there and you want to go to the conference, there is a discount available only for the next two weeks. So I'd encourage you to go to thermateradio.com, subscribe to the newsletter, and you'll get the promo code that'll be good through August 16th. We're gonna continue to do registration for the conference. So if you're out there and you're like, well, I definitely still want to go to the conference, I just want to pay full price. Cool. Buy your ticket after August 16th. You're totally able to do that. Uh, but for the rest of you who want a discount, that's a great way to do that. We are also, I believe, releasing the Introduction to Spiritual Gifts e-course once again in registration. I believe will be opening August 19th, or maybe it's pre-orders. I'm I'm I should have gotten all these uh uh you know uh dots, uh I's dotted and T's crossed. But uh unfortunately again, the uh tech difficulties have me a little bit off my game.

SPEAKER_02 5:05

Well unfortunately again, Michael.

SPEAKER_01 5:07

There you go. Just say it. To be fair, it would have been me solo, which would have been way worse for people to watch. Hey, let's just dive into a couple of clips. What I've done is I've scrubbed uh sections of her book um and turned them into an AI companion, had the AI companion read that. That'll be up on screen with the text from the book so that you can see the source material. Uh, I'm gonna essentially gonna clip each individual one of these uh chapters that'll begin to read, and then we're gonna give commentary on it over and over as we uh proceed through these clips. But I want to walk you through the kind of framework that we're gonna be doing today. We're gonna listen to a couple of clips, uh, which are gonna be, again, excerpts from the book, where she is going to tell her reader that they need to be dependent on apostles and prophets. Um, Catherine has bought into the NAR structure of leadership, not that the historic model of church leadership, which is the church is run by elders and deacons, or even uh a bishop that's over a region, or another model of congregational leadership. Um, we don't see any of that being used in Catherine's formation. She's appealing to the new uh apostolic reformation kind of set up by C. Peter Wagner, that apostles and prophets are at the top and they oversee uh the church so that anointing can kind of flow down and bless all of God's people. So she's going to uh use that articulation to say, hey, this is the real deal that you need to be pursuing. Uh, in the next section, we're gonna be looking at clips where she's going to kind of discount anything that looks different from that, calling it old wine, uh, calling it, you know, inferior models that aren't able to really receive the supernatural power that can only come when you have apostolic and prophetic oversight. Then we're gonna see her remove any possibility of disagreement. As she is going to uh say that people who disagree with her are going to be bitter, they're gonna be uh, man, vain in their own personal interests, they're self-righteous, etc. And then we're gonna look at her preventing people from going anywhere else as she claims that she's gonna be the source for a lot of this uh power. Uh and then we're gonna finally look at the pecking order, where she's going to claim that you have to really run a lot of these decisions through your spiritual leadership. As we do so, I hope that we can uh demonstrate to you today uh that this is uh dangerous cult-like tendencies for people who are here with Catherine. Now, again, we've got some technical difficulties. I realize that I'm gonna click this video, and there's gonna be two of me that pop up on screen, and then I have to punch Michael over to one of those cameras, so I apologize for that. Uh Roundtree, do you have anything you want to add before we dive into these clips? Uh no, I'm ready to dive in. Okay, here we go. Clip number one.

SPEAKER_00 7:39

Spiritual authority over others, to cast out demons, to heal the sick, to shepherd, or to teach is not given to everyone. But God must first see that a person is trustworthy before he increases their level of authority. We are all called to share the good news, but not all are called to be teachers or fieful ministers. James chapter 3 verse 1. As Ephesians chapter 4, verse 11, the New King James version says, and he himself tells them to be apostles and some prophets, some evangelists and some pastors and teachers. God releases the greatest levels of authority, and an anointing to apostles and prophets, followed by evangelists, pastors, and teachers, so that the five ministers may pour out that anointing into the believers. This is the divine principle of impartation, as seen when Elijah releases his mental to Elijah. So it is in the kingdom of God. God raises up five ministers and fills them with great anointing, wisdom, and spiritual knowledge, so that believers may learn, grow, and receive impartation through them, as they humbly submit under their leadership. This is God's divine structure.

SPEAKER_01 8:21

Okay, we're starting right off the bat. Uh, as I said, the focus is again the greatest measures of anointing are going to apostles and prophets. We're gonna see, again, downstream of this, maybe pun intended, uh, that this is gonna cause some serious problems uh when it comes to teachers and pastors who disagree with Catherine. Uh, but I've monologue quite a bit. Roundtree, do you got any initial thoughts on uh the anointing operating through apostles and prophets?

SPEAKER_02 8:47

Yeah. Um, okay, so first her first statement spiritual authority to uh over others to cast out demons to heal the sick, to shepherd or to teach. So so already she has uh like I don't know, there's been like this little uh I guess admission that she sees the ability to cast out demons and heal the sick as having authority over another human, like authority over others. Okay, but e either way, she says it's not given to everyone. So she's saying not all believers can pray for the sick and they can be healed? Not all believers can cast out demons, only special ones? What where's the passage of scripture that says only apostles and prophets can cast out demons and heal the sick? Now, when it comes to shepherding and teaching, I I would say there is some sense in which those are true. Although even when we look at teaching, if you look at like Ephesians 5, Colossians 3, you see that we're all to teach one another. Matthew 28, we're to uh we're to teach others what Jesus has taught us. And uh and so that there's a kind of a capital T teaching, which is entrusted to elders and lowercase d teaching that we all get to do. Uh, but she seems to really want to work in this like this authority over others is the real key because it's it seems to be really important that to her that that she gets this high-level authority, and uh and she inherently interprets Ephesians 4 11 as being an authority structure, but it actually never says that. It never says the prophets are the bosses of other prophets or the evangelists are bosses of others. Uh what we see in the New Testament is we see that the elders are entrusted with authority in the church. Um 1 Timothy 5, 17. It says uh it says exactly that. So um, but she but she sees this as an authoritarian sort of thing, exactly like you said with uh with the NAR, and she wants to run everything through this Elijah Elisha kind of umbrella where it's like you've got the boss prophet and then or apostle and then the prophet apostle under that person, and then all the underlings are under that. So just a very strong hierarchical structure. And what I see in the New Testament is not this sharp, strong hierarchical structure. There is such a thing as ecclesiastical authority in the church, absolutely. Uh, but I would call this overkill and uh and trying to turn the Elijah Elisha story into uh the end-all be-all of how spiritual authority is supposed to work, and uh, and I think that's uh reading too much into the text. Josh, what do you think?

SPEAKER_01 11:39

That's right. I uh you know I've got a couple of thoughts, uh, two that I want to kind of point out. She's going to essentially make this case that the reason that you are not seeing signs, wonders, and miracles is because you are not in a church that is being governed by an apostle or a prophet. Uh so she is trying to get the reader to um connect with this idea of why is my life not as supernatural as I see in the book of Acts. Um, first and foremost, I want to remind the reader, the life of those in the book of Acts was extremely difficult. Uh they were beaten, they were flogged, they were shipwrecked, they were left for dead uh over and over and over. Uh and it ends essentially uh with well, it doesn't explicitly state this, but with the expectation that Paul is going to his death. Um it is a life of suffering that we see in the book of Acts. And are there supernatural miracles that take place? Absolutely. Uh, but this takes span over decades. Uh this isn't a single moment, a single year, a single month where all these things are recorded. And yes, the exceptions to the norm, the exceptional stories are the ones that get written down. So here, she's going to try to connect the audience with this idea that, like, hey guys, look, um, if you want your life to look like the book of Acts, which again is going to be lots of trial and tribulation, that part is left out. If you want to see the supernatural signs, wonders, and miracles, what's missing is the apostolic and the prophetic. And you need those superior anointings. And again, the the scripture says we have received the anointing. What is the anointing? She even says later on in her book, the anointing is the Holy Spirit. So what does it mean to have a superior Holy Spirit? That's not that that's not something the text says. God's power that raised Christ from the dead, that same spirit that that caused that resurrection life is that same spirit that has been given to you. You don't have a greater Holy Spirit or a lesser Holy Spirit than I do, because we have both been united to the same Christ by faith. It is one Spirit who works in all and through all, uh, says Ephesians. So I don't think that this idea that there's a super or greater or you know level of anointing is even biblical. But the second thing I want to point out is that she suggests that trustworthiness, i.e., your integrity, uh, is going to be the metric by which that power is magnified and put on display in front of others. Uh, she, you know, uses the phrase that when you have a greater trustworthiness, you have greater levels of anointing authority given to you. She says God releases greater levels of authority and anointing to apostles and to prophets, uh, followed by evangelists, pastors, and teachers that are fivefold ministries, so forth and so on. But but she makes this claim that it is essentially a greater measure of authority when it is connected to uh greater levels of trustworthiness. God will give you more and more. The problem with that is that there are people in the Bible who are performing signs, wonders, and miracles who are false prophets, says the scripture. And if your integrity is a sign of power, then people are going to see power and go, oh, well, you must have integrity behind the scenes. That is false. Judas was one who, according to the scriptures, was one of the disciples, and as one of the twelve apostles, there is casting out demons, healing the sick, but we know from the scriptures he's skimming a little bit off the top of the money bag. He is stealing and would one day betray our Lord. Uh so in even in that account, you have someone who is demonstrating real supernatural power because God is sovereign over all, not because of some marker of integrity. Throughout the scriptures, spiritual maturity uh is really pointed at through the fruit of the spirit, not necessarily the gifts of the spirit. So Michael tackled the idea that gifts are not offices. I'll tackle the idea that gifts are not a seal of approval of someone's character, since we have false prophets doing these sorts of things, and uh, even at times believers who have fallen astray. In 1 Corinthians chapter 12, you have people who have bad integrity, they have bad character, they're not practicing spiritual gifts through the lens of love. And that's why Paul writes 1 Corinthians 13. Uh, so I'd make the argument that, well, this is a big nothing burger. Uh, everything you said is wrong, I award you no points.

SPEAKER_02 15:41

Yeah, and and I would also say I just really don't like this idea that God raises up ministers who have so one greater anointing, but I want to focus on greater wisdom and spiritual knowledge than other believers. And I just don't believe that. I mean, I became a lead pastor at age 30. Uh, and I I just feel like, man, uh, so many people in my church were way more spiritually mature than me because there's a certain kind of spiritual maturity that can only come from living and suffering and enduring things that a 30-year-old hasn't suffered and endured yet. And so uh and there were there were old ladies in my church that it's like they had memorized the whole Bible, we're super close to the Lord. I just wanted to like just sit and pray with them in a prayer meeting, and just because it was like I I was sort of catching some of their fire, if you will. And just this idea that, like, hey, we're at the top, we're the most anointed, we know the most, we're the closest to God, we're the most mature. I mean, it's very proud. And one of the ways the Apostle Paul talks about identifying a false teacher is by their arrogance. And so these are just very arrogant statements, and uh uh it's a big red flag to me.

SPEAKER_01 16:57

Yeah. Hey, I just want to read the correct section. Uh a moment ago, I said God, you know, releases greater levels of authority. I quoted the wrong section. It's it's still the right paragraph that we just listened to, but I didn't go up further. God must first see if a person is trustworthy before he increases their level of authority. And again, talking about authority and anointing, again, conflating those two things. The point still stands, even though uh I quoted the wrong section. Uh, let's go into clip number two, unless you have any other reservations against it, round tree. Okay, no reservations. Okay, clip number two.

SPEAKER_00 17:29

The New Living Translation puts the same verse this way. If you receive a prophet as one who speaks for God, this New Testament scripture reveals that believers in the early church who received the prophets recognize their words as coming from God, believe them, and follow them, would receive a prophet's reward. But the prophet's reward refers to blessings and an abundant life, as illustrated in 2 Chronicles chapter 20 verse 20, the New King James Version. So they rose early in the morning and went out into the wilderness of one to Goa. And as they went out, Joseph stood and said, Hear me, O Judah, and you inhabitants of Jerusalem, but believe in the Lord your God, and you shall be established, believe his prophets, and you shall prosper. But when you believe in God, you will be saved, but you will be established, meaning your journey as a child of God will begin. But to truly prosper, you must walk in God's ways of releasing his power, his word, and his miracles. But one of the primary ways God releases all of these things is through his servants. When you believe and receive a prophetic word and direction from a true prophet, you are aligning yourself with God's will, and that is where true prosperity is found.

SPEAKER_01 18:11

Okay, uh, that's ignite revival. That is gonna be in chapter two. The first section we quoted was in chapter four. Uh so in the first section, we saw that the reason you don't have uh anointing is gonna be involved with that five-fold ministry. But here we're gonna realize that the reason we don't have prosperity uh is because we have not had the prophetic office and we haven't received that prophetic office. If we would receive a prophet, we would receive a prophet's reward, which is really where true prosperity comes from. Roundtree, your thoughts about uh prosperity.

SPEAKER_02 18:43

Golly, uh man, it's just really tough. Like if you believe everything I say, follow me, obey me, respect me, and esteem me, then you will prosper. Man, that's rough. That's really, really rough. It really puts her as the mediator of all blessings. And uh man, uh there's a Bible verse I'm thinking of. It says there is one mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus. And and it really does sound like Catherine Craig makes herself and maybe a few other anointed folks out to be the mediators of blessing. Like she is the bottleneck, she is the choke point, she is the gateway to all blessing if you just believe, obey, and follow her. Uh, but to receive a prophet, I mean, in the context she's talking about, it's actually not talking about necessarily believing and following those prophets. Uh to receive the prophet in context was when the apostles were being sent out to uh on a mission trip uh through the towns of uh of Israel to go and preach and cast out demons and heal the sick. And so whoever received them, you might call this a person of peace. Uh, that person would be hospitable to them, would house them, and certainly would show a warmth to their message, but this idea that they would put them on this pedestal of believing everything they say and obeying and following them, well, there's actually no indicator that in the text that that's actually what happened. So I think she's going beyond the text, and then to talk about what is a prophet's reward, uh that text doesn't technically define what a prophet's reward is, so she jumps over to Chronicles to say the pros prophet's reward is prosperity. I I think we can more intuit or infer what a prophet's reward is, like you get the blessing of their ministry, but to make that into material prosperity, I think is overkill. No, a prophet ministers to you and you experience the blessing of their ministry. And so, I mean, if you really wanted to go old testament with it, look at uh the woman, like this would be kind of like the old testament equivalent of a person of peace, uh, where you have the the woman who takes Elijah in, and as a result, she gets provided for, you know, your oil, Elisha, your oil will not run out. It's actually happens this kind of same kind of thing with Elijah and Elisha. They get the blessing and benefit of their ministry. Now, in that case, it I I wouldn't call it prosperity, I would talk it call it survival. Uh, so that but there was a material aspect to it, but um, but sometimes it was healing, and sometimes it was a miracle, and sometimes it was a prophetic word. But to make a death.

SPEAKER_01 22:28

I mean, Paul in every city he went to, in every city he went to, the spirit testified that he was going to suffer. So he received that prophetic ministry and it ended in his death.

SPEAKER_02 22:40

Right, like attach yourself to Paul, it might not go well with you. Right? Or like people, uh the the apostles, uh why did they why did they scatter when Jesus was crucified? Because they knew that attaching themselves to the capital P ultimate prophet was actually going to cost them. Certainly not result in prosperity the way she's talking. Now, if we broaden prosperity to just mean uh just the blessing of the Lord, then then I could maybe go for that. But the blessing of the Lord might include being persecuted. But blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness' sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Uh the blessing that Jesus brings is a different kind of blessing than I think what Catherine Crick is promising.

SPEAKER_01 23:21

That's right. I I only meant to argue that here um Paul is receiving other prophets who are speaking over him, that he's going to go and suffer. And what is his reward? Well, he is a heavenly reward. Uh if if we're talking about earthly prosperity, he died. Um that's not the definition that she is. Giving here. It is receiving and trusting in the work of Yahweh. I think you've done a bang-up job on that. We've got 13 clips to go through. We've done two of them. We're 22 minutes in. So I'm going to pump to clip number three. Because not only does man the pr the prophetic and apostolic give you anointing, not only does it give you prosperity, it actually helps you live holy as well.

SPEAKER_00 24:00

God is restoring purity to the body of Christ. For believers to be transformed and pure pure heart. Okay, it is vital that God's not going to be able to do that. Why is clip three not playing? Once you plant yourself in the ministry that God has called you to, God is restoring purity to the body of Christ. For believers to be transformed and to have pure hearts, it is vital that God's system for growing and transforming his church, the fivefold ministry, is properly in place. Apostles and prophets carry the power of God that opens spiritual eyes to the reality of the spiritual realm, and the tangible presence of his love, which in turn produces the fear of God. Being in a ministry, where the power of God moves mightily, but brings a deep reverence and all for him. Apostles teach with a sense of divine seriousness about the Father's business. And their teachings help believers mature as the flesh is subdued by the prophets, but more than any of the other fivefold offices that carry a grace that brings forth the fear of God. The fear of God is what births a purity. The fear of God is a holy reverence that makes the slightest disobedience feel like a heartbreak to your soul. Many Christians today lack the fear of God and live their faith casually. They abuse God's grace and miss its true revelation. That grace isn't to be taken advantage of, yet we don't have to live afraid of making mistakes. Because his grace covers us when we do. As a believer, your heart's greatest desire should be to live in his will every day, continually walking in obedience.

SPEAKER_01 24:50

Sorry, I don't know why that clip didn't play initially. If you guys, again, follow this train of thought, why why is it that you're not living holy? Well, it it's not your fault. It's not your responsibility. It's not um because you are sowing to the flesh and reaping from the flesh. And I also want to concede to the ground that, man, it is a work of God. It's trust and faith in Jesus that, man, uh actualizes sanctification. The scriptures uh will speak of sanctification in a very kind of mystical sort of way, where God sanctifies us and then we participate in that sanctification process as well. It is very synergistic in its formation in the scriptures, but this is a deeply complicated issue. And here, these deeply complicated issues of like when why God heals or doesn't heal, why God gives prophetic words or doesn't give prophetic words, how God gives prosperity to some and and to others, they don't seem to have that same kind of monetary prosperity or or even your own sanctification. These are extremely complex theological ideas that she is just writing off to say, if you want the quick answer, if you want to get the quick fix, what you need is apostles and prophets. It's not sowing to the spirit, it's not uh trusting in Jesus all the more, it's not growing in your dependence on your savior. The answer to all of the problems that plague you, those are apostles and prophets. Um when I look at this when I look at this book, when I when I read uh what is being you know written down by Catherine, uh I see a very complex issue being resolved with very simple solutions. And that's one of the things that cult groups are going to continue to offer. Very simple solutions for very complex problems.

SPEAKER_02 26:36

Yeah. Yeah. The argumentation is apostles are the best. I'm an apostle, follow me, and you'll be able to fear God. Uh, I don't man, it's just it's really bad. Uh, I'm gonna focus on a specific line. Uh, because I mean, apostles teach with a sense of divine seriousness about the father's business. Do teachers not? Teachers are just kind of casual about it? Like if you look at Ezra, like this teacher, he was careful to uh to study and observe all the commands of the Lord. And uh what was it? It's like steady observe. There were three verbs there once uh anyway. I lost it, but he uh ripped out people's beards who were compromising.

SPEAKER_01 27:16

But he's just a teacher, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 27:19

But he's just a teacher, right? So he's not really serious about the fear of God. So you see, it's like this very it's like huge on elevating, like her her whole point is to elevate the role of apostles, and she considers herself an apostle, so it is a self-exalting message. Once again, it's arrogant. Paul warns about about arrogant teachers. Uh, this is something to be really careful about. Um, so like prophets more than any of the other fivefold offices carry a grace that brings forth the fear of God. Like evangelists can't bring about the fear of God, teachers can't bring about the fear of God. Uh what what Bible verse says that? Now Paul does single out apostles and prophets as uh within the temple of Christ is the chief cornerstone. Apostles and prophets make this foundation, and others are being built upon that. That's Ephesians chapter two, and that's where she gets this. But if you uh keep reading into Ephesians chapter three, it explains why. Because in that day, the apostles and prophets were bringing forth revelation that Gentiles are co-heirs and fellow partakers of the promises. So, in other words, you didn't have a tier system where it's like, oh, you have the really awesome Jews and the second-class citizen Gentiles. No, the revelation of the gospel is that we're all on an equal footing. Well, here's the irony she takes this and she puts apostles and prophets on this special tier. So you once again have two tiers of Christians. It's the very thing Paul's trying to warn about. The other thing that I want to zero in on is she talks about uh opening the eye, opening spiritual eyes. Ah, where is that? Um, where prophets have uh special ability. Yeah, apostle prophets carry the power of God that opens spiritual eyes to the reality of the spiritual realm and the tangible presence of his love, um, which in turn produces this the fear of God. Okay, so apostles and prophets open spiritual eyes. Um, where does it say that in scripture? In fact, the apostle Paul actually says that, like he prays in Ephesians chapter one that all of us would have our spiritual eyes opened. So I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened or opened so that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and the incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead. And so, uh, and so Paul is praying for all believers to have this. And so, should we not continue praying for this? Was this just like a one-time prayer? Uh, so this idea the apostles and prophets have this special power for uh opening uh spiritual eyes, or take Psalm 119, I'll quote the KJV open thou mine eyes that I might behold wondrous things out of thy law. Uh so David is praying that God would open up his eyes to behold the beauty of God's word. Uh and so there's no sense anywhere in scripture the apostles or prophets alone carry this ability to open spiritual eyes. Actually, that quality belongs to God. God opens spiritual eyes and he uses lots of different people to do it, he uses evangelists. Uh evangelists open the eyes of the spiritually blind so that they can say, Now I see. And so it's false. It's altogether false what she's saying. And the effect of the falsehood is to once again exalt her. That's my problem. I want teaching that exalts Jesus. Like all of this, it's all about the exaltation of the apostle, it's all about the exact exaltation of the prophet. Why are we exalting humans? Why aren't we exalting Jesus Christ? That's who I want to exalt. And any ministry that is exalting man and not Jesus Christ, I say big red flag. Run away from that.

SPEAKER_01 31:02

Yeah, notice every single one of these markers: healing, deliverance, um, uh opening the eyes, uh, helping you live holy, helping you walk in prosperity. Who who's the one person in scripture that's sovereign over all of those things? God. But but in all of these accounts, she's saying, don't don't I mean, yeah, look to God, but go to the mediator. The mediator will get you there. Um and guys, we're we're Protestant to the core.

SPEAKER_02 31:29

It's almost like a charismatic papacy papacy. Like uh go to the Pope. It's like we need a new mediator. Actually, no, I think we settled that. I think we settled that a long time ago.

SPEAKER_01 31:38

Been there, done that, bought the t-shirt, went home and slept in it, didn't like it. Uh, now I'm Protestant. So uh let's let's look let's look at uh how we receive anointing, because I think this is uh the final the final straw on this first point before we move on to point number two, uh, in kind of side brushing everything that disagrees with us.

SPEAKER_00 32:01

Once you plant yourself in the ministry that God has called you to, the same anointing that flows through the leader that is releasing miracles and transforming lives will begin to flow upon your life and touch every area of it. But when you make the decision to become planted in the church where God has assigned you, you open a spiritual door for his anointing to move freely in your life. But it's a divine principle that when you plant yourself where God has called you, the anointing will locate you, bringing spiritual protection, health, growth, and incartation. But when you are rooted in the place God has chosen for you, you will grow spiritually with great acceleration. The weights of oppression and the weaknesses of the flesh will fall away with ease. But whenever you need healing or deliverance, the anointing will release the miracles you need. But when I speak of the anointing, I am speaking of the Holy Spirit himself, but specifically the Holy Spirit moving in power, just as he did through the apostles and fiveful ministers in the early Church of Acts.

SPEAKER_01 32:36

Okay. I I hope you notice what's going on here, because if you are experiencing any kind of um lack of freedom in a specific area of sin, if you're not seeing demonstrations of power, what must that mean? It must mean that you're not planted in the house you're supposed to be in. Uh again, I believe this is an active attempt to get people to distrust the spaces they're in. Oh, if I was in the right space, had the right apostle over me, uh, that anointing would flow down onto me. My life would be that of a prosperity and health and wealth. Uh, I I would be one who could cast out demons and heal the sick, I'd be living free from sin. I have all these great things going on in my life. And because I'm here in this little small country church, and there's not a lot of stimulation taking place on a Sunday morning, I'm not seeing lots of transformation at this moment. I probably need to go find somewhere else to be. And the best place to get the anointing is sitting under godly leaders. Who is the godliest of leaders? Well, according to Catherine, uh, the godliest of leaders, the most anointed, those who are walking in true power, those are apostles and prophets, which again is going to give you a very small list of churches that you can go to truly get empowered. I think this is an active attempt for Catherine to fish people out of their local communities and into her community. Now you might say, Josh, that's not fair. Uh, you know, uh, she has a a little church in LA that this is there's not an opportunity for her to get all of the people who are reading this book and all the people who are on her podcast to be members of her church. And I go, aha. But she actually says uh in her book that the the way that people are connecting themselves to her ministry are mostly online, that people are getting deliverance and freedom and downstream anointing uh from that online ministry. She does not have a vision of a local community being the assembly. Her vision of a church is one that is connected. As long as your primary uh source of uh education and training and theological development is coming from an apostle and a prophet, and you're gonna see in a moment, namely just one. Uh, you actually can't go to other prophets and apostles because that'll confuse you and there's probably mixture. You really just need to go to one, and she claims she's the one who's got the new wine, she's got the new anointing, she's the one you really need to be listening to. Extremely culty. Um, bad, bad, bad, bad.

SPEAKER_02 35:03

Yeah. Yeah. When when you're rooted in the place God has chosen for you, you will grow spiritually and with great acceleration. The weights of oppression and the weaknesses of the flesh will fall away with ease. I'm sorry, it's never easy. Anyone who's promising you that it's easy, like this is this is the message. Let me let me just break this down for you. If you come to my church, if you submit to me as your apostle, your life will become easy. What? No way. Where's when since when is crucifixion easy? Since when is take up your cross and follow me easy? The the teacher that I want to follow is the one who says, take up your cross, not the one who says, Come to me and your life will be easy. It'll be easy to give up uh those addictions. It'll be easy to give up everything that's holding you. No, no, absolutely not. There's not this great acceleration just because I go to Catherine Crick's church. No, absolutely not. And there's just this like huge focus on the signs and wonders. I believe in the signs and wonders. I believe in prophecy healing, casting out demons. I've seen it all. Uh, I believe in it, but man, I believe in the ordinary means of grace. And I I just get exhausted with this idea of like this constant sense of like there's gonna be revival, there are gonna be all these signs and wonders, and it's gonna make your life easy, and you're just gonna break out. Like, that's not real life. If anyone's really honest, it's just not real life. And I've seen a lot, but most of my life is ordinary, and a lot of people I pray for, no, but they don't get healed, and a lot of people I pray for, they do get healed, but like, you know, it's like I I've been on sabbatical, and uh last week I visited an Anglican church, and the Anglican church, they weren't like jumping around and storming it's very liturgical, kind of almost quiet, soft spoken. Um, but the presence of God was there, and the ordinary means of grace were present, and it was absolutely beautiful. And I just think that's the way, like what do we need? We we need a church that is faithful, that loves faithful to the scriptures, uh, a church with uh that is full of faithful believers who can encourage us in our faith in our faith, uh, that practice word and sacrament and the ordinary means of grace that come into our life. That's what transforms us. And the transformation is usually not like this immediate giant change that occasionally happens. Um, usually it's slow. We're transformed, as Paul would say, from glory to glory. Uh, we're not instantly transformed into the image of Christ. So uh it's just a lot of promises that she can deliver on.

SPEAKER_01 37:43

It's funny that you mentioned normative means of grace. She actually goes out of her way. Uh, Michael, if you can go look at full citations and tap the second tab of the show notes. Uh she mentions communion explicitly as something that has become ritualistic in an old wineskin because people want to take it regularly. Um it is not good. Uh again, when someone is encouraging you to not go to the places God has promised to be and said, hey, that's just dead religion. We need the new thing, and then they point to themselves as the new thing. Um, again, the focus is coming off of what Christ has told us to put the focus on. Now you might argue, you know, Josh, uh, God hasn't made this giant focus of like communion being the way that we encounter God. Uh it's just one of the means. Uh, God has promised to be in his word, right? The word of God is uh it's powerful. The gospel is the power of God and the salvation for all who believe, right? God meets us in the gospel. Uh God meets us in communion, his presence, it's real body, is his uh his presence, it's his communion, it's koinia uh with his body and with his blood. It's some kind of spiritual fellowship that he has promised us as we take communion. Um, the same is true of the assembly. He is with us and in us and around us when we gather as a community in this unique way that Christ is among us when we gather. He inhabits the praise of his people as we gather together for worship. And these are the places that God has promised he will meet us. And to say, hey, look, stop focusing on those things. That's just dead religion. Focus on these new methods. That's the new wineskin, is the message you're going to be receiving from this book.

SPEAKER_02 39:17

Yeah, but I think by the way, like a common charismatic uh way of talking, like this is the new wineskin. Like the new wineskin is it's the kingdom and the spirit, it's the ministry that Jesus inaugurated in coming. It's not like every time a Johnny Cum lately comes around and uh gives you a new way to shake to the Holy Ghost that that's the new wineskin. Like the new wineskin isn't your new ministry idea, the new wineskin isn't your new preaching style, uh, or your new church government that you invented, uh, that has you know apostles and prophets as the bosses of the elders, if you even have elders, which you probably don't. Like, no, that's not a new wineskin. The new wineskin is the ministry Jesus inaugurated of the kingdom of God characterized by the coming of the Spirit. That's what the gospels teach. Um, but yeah, charismatics love to do that. Hey, here's the latest new wineskin. No, no, that that ain't it.

SPEAKER_01 40:12

Uh, you want to keep going? Yeah, it's a different kind of wine. They're just whining about religion they don't like. Okay, um, here we go. Uh, next clip. This is gonna move us into section two, uh, which is going to, man, discredit anything that looks different than the model that Catherine has set up.

SPEAKER_00 40:29

Ephesians chapter 2, verse 20. It says that the church is built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, uh, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. This scripture reveals that the foundation of the body of Christ, the apostles and prophets, with Jesus as the chief cornerstone. But God intends that the apostles and prophets serve as the foundation, providing stability, strength, and lasting support for the rest of the body. But just as a house built without a solid foundation that will eventually collapse under wind and glory, so too will the church alter when it rejects God's design. But one of the main reasons that the church of today has largely drifted from God's original blueprint, and why miracles, signs, and wonders are now rare compared to what we read about the Act Church is because much of the body of Christ has rejected this foundation, but by doing so, the strength and impact of the entire church has been weakened, but with only three of the vital offices functioning. The body of Christ has remained incomplete, lacking the strength to walk in consistent victory as powerful vessels of God. The ministers of the Apostle and Prophet are essential to bring this maturity. They carry the authority to release God's power, break the strongholds of the enemy, strengthen believers, and impart vision and direction to the church.

SPEAKER_01 41:18

Okay. Um Round Tree, I'm gonna let you go first, and then you're chopping out of the bit. Also think concise thoughts. We're trying to get done by five, okay? That's that's the top the shot clock you put on me. So uh Ephesians 4 20, Apostles and Prophets lay the foundation, ready, set, go.

SPEAKER_02 41:33

Okay, well, I I think I've already uh done a little baby exegesis of Ephesians 2 going into Ephesians chapter 3. Uh I do not view this as this ongoing re while I do believe apostles and prophets still exist, we view apostles as more like missionaries. I mean, it means basically sent ones. And Ephesians 4, 11 to 13 does indicate that uh uh these will last, this five-fold, if you want to call it that, will last until we all reach mature the unity of faith and the knowledge of the Son of God, which hasn't happened yet, uh, and probably speaks of the uh maturity of the church at Christ's return. So it sounds as though apostles and prophets will be around uh until the end. Yet there was a unique role at the very beginning, and that was in establishing a gospel foundation that Jews and Gentiles are co-heirs in the faith. Uh, that was that revelation that they brought was ultimately what was foundational to the church. Uh, not that, like, hey, a prophet has a new vision. Now a prophet has a new vision. No, modern prophets are not for establishing doctrine. They can have fresh revelation, but not doctrinal revelation. Uh, and uh anyway, so I'm gonna stop because I know that we we gotta be fast. So, Josh, do you want to go build on that?

SPEAKER_01 42:51

No, I I think that's good, man. I think the only thing that's again that we have to press here is that why do you have an absence of miracles? You don't have apostles and prophets. That's the focus. I'm gonna punch into this very next clip because again, we're gonna we're gonna make good time on this. We've basically said everything we need to say up into this point in this clip. Let's watch the next one.

SPEAKER_00 43:08

What's happening in the body of Christ today is that many pastors, evangelists, and teachers cannot operate in the prophetic or apostolic anointing the way God wants to use them in certain situations, because they have not accepted and respected apostles and prophets in the body of Christ today. Once the pastors, evangelists, and teachers of today acknowledge and respect the global revival God has brought, as well as the apostles and prophets he has raised up, God will start to use them in powerful ways they've never experienced before. Miracles will start to happen, and they will start to operate in the prophetic anointing. People in their churches will receive the apostolic and prophetic ministries that they desperately need.

SPEAKER_01 43:33

She's gonna go on to tell stories about how pastors go to her meetings a little skeptical, but once they begin to praise the work of God that's taking place, they go home and see the same kind of things that Catherine is claiming to see at her church. But here's the thing: if someone was to step out and say, you know what, I disagree with Catherine on this, you know what she's gonna say? Ah, those are just pastors and teachers. Yeah, they don't have a whole lot of anointing, and they're just not coming in line with what God is already doing. Uh here's the thing. You know what people in the charismatic movement already think about pastors and teachers? You can go look at Danny Silk's book, uh, Culture of Honor. That will give you a really good summarization of what many charismatics think of pastors and teachers. Uh, and if you don't want to buy the book, you can always go check out our YouTube video where we talk about culture of honor. And in that book, you're gonna see that Danny Silk, in much of the charismatic movement, believes that teachers are divisive. They're just there to divide and try to make truth claims and trying to think uh figure out if things are factually right or wrong when there's a lot of nuance when it really comes to the spirit's truth. At the end of the day, teachers have exhibited themselves as individuals who have discernment. And here, one of the things that Catherine is doing is cutting off the body of Christ from that discernment. You shouldn't listen to people who aren't walking in power. The reason they're not walking in power is because they're just teachers, they're just pastors, they're not really apostolic nor prophetic. You're gonna see claims like this all throughout the book. Roundtree, any thoughts?

SPEAKER_02 44:55

Yeah, it's funny. It almost sounds like a cessationist argument that, hey, apostles and prophets, they're the ones who did the miracles, mostly apostles, and they're since they're gone, we don't have the miracles anymore. That's one of the uh one of the cessationist arguments, but she uses in the reverse direction to say, well, since these are still around, we're gonna have miracles. But what we would say at Rimna Radio is actually a lot of miracles are performed by non-apostles, non prophets, uh, throughout the scripture. I mean, you look at the church in Galatians, it's like, you know, it speaks about God doing miracles among you by faith. In the church in Corinth, 1 Corinthians chapter 12, God gives gifts of miracles, gifts of healings, gifts of tongues. Uh and so on. And it's it's the analogy that he uses, it's the is the body of Christ. Like this is just something that God distributes, 1 Corinthians 12, 11, the Holy Spirit distributes as he determines. And so this is just something that exists within the body of Christ. It's not something that is locked in to apostles and prophets. You have uh Philip, who was called Philip the Evangelist, not Philip the Apostle, not Philip the prophet. Uh, you have Stephen, who's along with Philip, a table server, and yet he's doing great signs, wonders, and miracles. And so this idea that you pretty much have to be an apostle or prophet to do the awesome stuff, uh, no, I don't see it. So that's what I would say.

SPEAKER_01 46:21

Yeah, and I think that again, um man. Wait, this is doing the thing that Paul says not to do in the body of Christ and 1 Corinthians 12, 13, and 14, to look at yourselves as superior or inferior based on your gifting. The Holy Spirit gives gifts as he wills, not based on your character, not based on who you're submitted to and and whose anointing you're coming under, who's of Paula, who's of Apollos. Do you serve Paul? Did Apollos die for you? Did did did did Paul lay down his life and give you new life? No, uh, Christ did. Uh we follow him. We've received his spirit, not the spirit of Apollo-Apal, not the spirit of Apollos. And and what she's doing is she's encouraging people to make distinctions amongst believers and to judge them based off of those spiritual gifts. The very thing that the scriptures commands us not to do. Okay, I'm pumping on to the next clip.

SPEAKER_00 47:07

Jesus was revealing I have come to show you a new way, the true way. This is the new wine. But he warned that they could not hold on to their old wineskins and receive the new wine at the same time. Old wineskins symbolize the rigid man-made traditions and doctrines they had clung to. The new wine represented the teaching of Jesus, his way, the true revelation of God's word and his ways. Today, many believers have unknowingly embraced the wrong doctrine. The new wine has largely been lost in the body of Christ, and the old wine has crept back in. To receive the new wine, you must be willing to let go of what you think you know about God and his word and begin afresh.

SPEAKER_01 47:31

There you have it. So, what's the new wine? Uh well, it it certainly includes the ministry of apostles and prophets. We'll see that in this quote. Um, if it wasn't in the specific quote that we have here, it is in the larger quote. You can find it in the show notes under full citations under the second tab of the Google Doc. Uh, when you jump over to Patreon, you can get access to those show notes. But here she is claiming that this old wine, new wineskins passage that Jesus is referring to, she actually gets some of the exegesis right in referring to fasting. That's what this is about. But then she takes a giant leap into applying it to all sorts of things, uh, including church leadership, including communion, including altar calls, etc., etc., etc. Uh, she makes a real big mountain out of this molehill of new wine uh and new wineskins, opposed to old wine uh in new wineskins. But here she says this phrase, to receive the new wine, you must be willing to let go of what you think you know about God and his work and his word and begin afresh. So again, if you've got any kind of experience with the scriptures, you've got some kind of understanding of discernment, any knowledge of, hey, this is a false teaching, that's a false teaching. She's just saying, uh, hit command a delete. Just erase the whole thing. No necesito any discernment, no necessito theology, no necessito, uh more wine. That's the big wine space. Anyone ever told you that? Thanks, buddy. I appreciate that. Yeah, I'm really working on it. Um maybe it's just tongue speech. I don't know. I'm I'm really fired up here. Uh just no, I'm just kidding. Okay. Uh, listen, uh, this is a problem uh when you're telling people who are out there, hey, you should distrust all of the stuff that's going on there. Those are just pastors, they don't really have the anointing. You really just need to let go of all of the theology that you have and really just cling fast to this new wineskin. She's gonna go out of her way later to say that, you know, those apostles and prophets who are over you, you've got to cherish their words as the very words of God. You've got to cherish them as a gift. And this is really important because again, here, any former teaching, you get rejected. And the new teaching that comes down from apostles and prophets, their new revelation, you need to cling to them as if they are the very words of God, which are a blessing for you and your prosperity. Okay, I've monologued long enough. Roundtree, your thoughts.

SPEAKER_02 49:55

Yeah, uh, it's a really dangerous statement for her to say that to get the new wine, you have to be willing to let go of what you think you know about God and his word and begin afresh. Like, what if what you know about God and his word is accurate orthodox doctrine? Just forget about it, begin afresh. Uh no, no. What we need is right doctrine. And if you leave right doctrine, you go into wrong doctrine, then you have no access to the new wine. So absolutely. Like Jesus' criticism of the Pharisees was never like uh like like he was never like, hey, you need to just abandon right doctrine. In fact, on a lot of things, the Pharisees had right and accurate doctrine, for instance, with the resurrection. Um, the main problem with the Pharisees was that they were hypocrites. So uh anyway, but this idea that you just need to forget right doctrine, um, man, that's really dangerous. She now she didn't use those words, but forget what you know about God's word. That's real dangerous.

SPEAKER_01 50:54

Yeah, we've already watched her receive praise from people and attribute to her certain praises that should only go to Christ. Uh we we've seen her over and over say things like, I would never leave my spiritual father, implying that people who are under her should never leave their spiritual father because, or mother in this case, uh, because that anointing would be broken and no longer flow to them. Uh when you have a person who has a clearly high control environment where they're manipulating the people of God to come to them in order to get to God, and then you say in that environment that that that you should tell all of those people to, you know, control alt-delete uh everything that came before, man, that is a recipe for disaster. And I think when you look through these citations, again, you're gonna see this is the new framework. Anything under it should be uh discouraged and disbelieved because it's inferior anointings. Then you're gonna see an even further uh removal of any kind of possibility of disagreement. We've already touched on some of that already, but I think it will continue. Uh Roundtree, was there a quote here that was removed by chance?

SPEAKER_02 51:55

Uh maybe I accidentally pushed control alt delete.

SPEAKER_01 51:59

I don't know. Yeah, I kept saying it over and over, and he did it. Well, here's the next clip. We'll see.

SPEAKER_00 52:03

Some believe that being judgmental, walking in pride and lacking the power of God in the church is the right way. This is the old wine they have come to enjoy, just as the Pharisees did. It is crucial to recognize the temptation of the old wine, and to guard yourself from being influenced by who still drinking from it. No matter how large the platform, how eloquently they speak, or how charismatic they may appear. Remember, the road is narrow. Many will prefer the old wine, convinced that their way is right. But that path leads to spiritual death and the tragedy of missing revival.

SPEAKER_01 52:24

Okay, that's the first quote from chapter five. I'm gonna quote another one from chapter nine before we give commentary.

SPEAKER_00 52:35

But to talk about Jesus is not enough. To lead a ministry, yet refuse to stand with what God is doing in his revival is not acceptable before God. If you are attempting to be after his heart, but minister from your own way, your words are empty, and your ministry is in vain.

SPEAKER_01 52:46

Yo, I know I played the first clip and I have to give commentary to it, but that second clip is crazy. Talking about Jesus is not enough. To lead a ministry, yet to refuse to stand with what God is doing in his revival is not acceptable before God. She is literally saying, and then she calls them vain. She says to not stand with them is vain. But what she's saying is if you don't give me a pat on the back for the revival that I'm doing and you don't stand with me, like you're vain. You're asking for praise and approval from other ministers. You're the vain one. What are we even talking about? I'm taking crazy pills here. But you remove any kind of disagreement when you see one, uh, this is just an old charismatic way of thinking. This is an old wine skin. And then two, you're standing against what God is doing uh by remaining silent. So so one, yeah, you can't say anything against it because that's an old wineskin. But but not only can you not say something against it, you can't even remain silent. Because if you remain silent, that's something that God will not tolerate because you're just being vain. I've got other quotes in here that I didn't have time to pull because, again, this is going to be a super long video. But she'll say that those who don't side uh with what God is doing in this new revival are self-righteous, that they are prideful, that they are pharsacal. So she will use any attempt to write people off uh as if any individual who disagrees is not of God. Well, which again, I guess if you've deleted all of your discernment, that that could make sense.

SPEAKER_02 54:19

Yeah. Yeah, and what she calls an old wineskin. So here's her definition. Uh, people who are judgmental, walking in pride, lacking the power of God in the church. This is not the right way. This is the old wineskin that they have come to enjoy, just like the Pharisees. Okay, so for her, she's defining old wineskins as being judgmental, proud, and lacking power. Now, first of all, we've pointed out numerous instances of power in her ministry. Uh, and honestly, judgmentalness. She's criticizing everybody else except herself and uh and not being uh self-reflective, and there have been a lot of uh concerns expressed, but she's not engaging with them. She just calls them Pharisees and dismisses them. Uh, but to say that that's the definition of an old wineskin, well, uh exegetically, the old wineskin was the old covenant uh structures. It wasn't just like what was in the Pharisees' hearts, it was the the old covenant structures that couldn't contain the new covenant or the kingdom that Jesus was bringing uh and his ministry. And so uh she's actually misdefined it, and she's misdefined it in a way to ostracize maybe millions of people in the body of Christ, maybe everyone that's not her, uh, maybe everyone that's not belonging to her ministry, their old wineskins. So she miss-exegetes a text in order to ostracize people and promote herself. So uh that would be my problem.

SPEAKER_01 55:48

Yeah, uh, it's again calling other people vain when it's just putting your vanity on display, you know, telling people that you know being judgmental um is really an old wineskin while you judge them. Like here, look, I'm I'm all about using right judgment, but you can't say don't judge. Because it's it's like saying there's no truth. Well, is that true? Well, well, telling someone you're being judgmental, you shouldn't judge, you're exercising judgment when you're telling them not to be judgmental. You've discerned what they're doing and you're saying it's wrong. That is the definition. So, so uh she is she is having her cake and eating it too, as the saying goes. She is trying to say on one hand, we shouldn't be doing this while her herself is doing that very thing. Um, and this is what Paul warns us about in the New Testament, people who are hypocrites as it relates to their own teachings and doctrines. Round, do you want to watch the next clip or do you have any uh follow-up thoughts?

SPEAKER_02 56:44

Uh yeah, I was just I was looking for it really fast, but I'll just I'll just quote it. But yeah, what I was gonna say was when when Paul's apostleship is challenged, he doesn't just uh say, Yes, but I was appointed by Apostle Peter, or you know, the the Elijah over our ministry anointed me, therefore no one can contest me. Like he didn't say the kinds of things she says. When Paul's apostleship was contested, you know what he pointed to? Second Corinthians 11? How much he suffered. He's like, I've been shipwrecked, I've been stoned, I've been left for dead, uh, I've been rejected and beaten, and all these different forms of suffering. And he says this is the defense of his this is the defense of his apostleship. And so all like I look at Catherine uh uh Catherine Crick and she's I I I would like to hear like how have you suffered? I mean, the claim to be an apostle is a big claim. And when we look at all the apostles, they all suffered considerably. This more than anything is the mark of the apostle. She makes it out to all be all about the signs and wonders, and really, I guess that just means people shake when she points at them or pushes them to the ground. But uh, what I want to see is the mark of suffering, because that's the real mark of an apostle. And for anyone out there, like, I don't expect Katherine Crick's listening to this. If you're out there and you're one of Catherine Crick's followers, just uh just think about that. Read 2 Corinthians 11, lead read Paul's uh defense of his own apostleship and compare it with her. How much has she suffered? Because to me, it looks like she gets a higher and higher pedestal, and all these people are praising her like she's Jesus Christ. And uh and I just want to know where's the suffering because I don't see it.

SPEAKER_01 58:31

That's right. Okay, I'm clipping the next next clip. We've only got four or more. We'll see if we can make it through.

SPEAKER_00 58:36

Being planted is like receiving the perfect spiritual nutrients, serving well-balanced meals prepared by God himself for your leaders. The opposite of being planted is what I call the spiritual buffet, which isn't healthy for anyone. This happens when believers listen to a teaching here and another there, sampling from every voice in ministry. This approach often leads to confusion because not every teacher is anointed or assigned to feed you. Some may truly be called by God yet not called to help you fulfill your specific assignment, but others may not be called at all, and their old wine and wrong doctrines can lead you astray. Two others may carry a mixture of old and new wine, truth mixed with error, and receiving that mixture. It can hinder your growth and keep you from receiving the solid, simple truth that sets you free. You are called to be a revival warrior in God's revival army. There are many teachers today who have not accepted the move of God in this revival, and their teachings will not equip you to become who God has called you to be.

SPEAKER_01 59:11

I don't know if you caught it. But again, here we go. Here's fivefolds the thing. Don't listen to anybody else, they're just not anointed. Hey, if anyone disagrees with me, they're just vain and prideful and judgy and that old wineskin. But now there's another level. The other level is you need to be coming to one place and one place only. You shouldn't be going to other sources because if you start, you know, spreading out, they're probably not anointed to equip you. Maybe they're even anointed of God. They're just not anointed of God to equip you. And and, you know, then there's other teachers. They've got just a little poop in the brownie, they've got a little bit of false doctrine, and that could be confusing for you. You really just need to set up under your apostle and your prophet. Can you see what's happening? Uh well, for one, she's written a book. This is a book. Does she think that only people in her church are gonna read this book? Or do you think that she is expecting to reach other people with it? That she is maybe one of those other voices that she's saying you shouldn't go and listen to. So again, she's holding herself to a different standard while simultaneously encouraging people who are ministered to by this book to find one source. And again, I'm gonna argue that one source is probably Catherine, because Catherine has said over and over that she has got this unique anointing, and we're gonna see that when she talks about her own wineskin here in a moment in the great revivals that you know she has been seeing in her ministry and the people that are getting healed and delivered as the most anointed. Wouldn't you want to go sit under her ministry? This is what is being communicated. This is just apex cult-like activity. When you begin to cut people off from other resources that might criticize the main source. Uh hey, Catherine, you know, uh, she's she's got all of the right answers. And don't listen to anyone else who might poison the well and your beliefs about that person. We I remember going back and I watched it right before our podcast today, watching the old Catherine Crick video, and it's like, man, she just inscripturated this into a book. In her original video, she was like, we should never judge and we should never correct other Christians, except when they're gossiping about our leaders and slandering our leaders. It's like never correct. But if they're saying stuff about me, you can shut that down, which I thought was hilarious. Okay, Roundry, uh, if I've left any more meat on that bone, feel free to pick a dry.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:24

Sorry, I was just typing into the chat. John Mark Baker, are you an apostle? Because he said he was suffering as he was watching this. Uh okay. So I want to come back to what you said a minute ago about like the the isolated tendency and you called it a cult. Like if you look at just any level of abuse, abusers control people by silencing them. So if it's uh, you know, if it's a sexual abuse of a child, it's uh, you know, hey, don't tell this, it's gonna be our secret. Uh, which the same thing can happen even in non-children contexts where there are power dynamics at play. Don't tell anyone. If you tell anyone, you know, like I remember Rabbi Zacharias, if you tell anyone I'm gonna kill myself. I mean, he didn't use those exact words, but he implied it. And so uh and so it's using Did you attribute that to the Roman source? Rabbi Zacharias?

SPEAKER_01 1:02:16

Ravi Zacharias? I think Ravi Zacharias died. I think you're referring to the word of faith managed.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:25

No, the Ravi did it too. Ravi did it. Yeah, he did. Uh he's like, I'll have to bid this life farewell, or something like that. I remember reading it, and no one cared at that time. That was that was out there before he died, actually. Anyway, here's the point. So people try to control, they use whatever power they they can. It can be the power of self-pity, it can be the power of position position, whatever it is. Uh they use their power to silence somebody. It happens in uh spiritual abuse situations, any abuse situation, they love to control and to isolate. I remember when I was at the University of Texas in Austin, and there was a cult group on campus, they would make people cut off their families in order to receive discipleship because Jesus says, hate your father, mother. What they were really trying to do was to try to prevent any sort of sense or reason to be spoken into these students' lives, and they would cut them off and they would teach them false doctrine. And so that's exactly the same kind of thing. She's she's literally telling you, you have to be planted with me and with my kind of teaching and stay away from those other mixed sources who aren't okay with what I'm doing. Guys, this is spiritual abuse. This is controlling abusive behavior. I want to teach you to identify the signs. If somebody's telling you, don't listen, like I okay, so I I pastor a church. I don't tell people like, hey, don't listen to certain, don't listen to other preachers, only listen to me. Like, I'm not afraid of them listening to other preachers. I love it. Like, if they're gonna download a Matt Chandler or a Tim Keller or a whoever, like I'm glad for them to listen to other preachers. Now, if someone's a heretic, I might say, like, hey, don't listen to Brian Zond, because Brian Zond teaches heresy, and the Apostle Paul might say the same thing. I'll call out someone specific, but uh, and by the way, we have episodes on Brian Zond, you can go and listen to those. But my point being, she just makes this like general statement about like pretty much anyone who's not mean, don't listen to them. That's spiritual abuse.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:28

That's right. That's right. It's super, super bad. I thought you were talking about Perry Stone a moment ago. Uh, but yes, Ravi Zacharias and Perry Stone apparently have made similar claims. We've uh done reviews of Perry. I've got three more clips. Let's push through them. I got clip number 11 here. Uh again, don't go anywhere else. We got that new wine.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:45

There are many believers who have not fully surrendered to him. There will always be people who are not pleased with what you do for God. Those who don't believe in him, the lukewarm whose eyes remain closed, and the modern-day Pharisees who resist the move of the Spirit. God has called me to a unique path, a pioneering calling that few have walked. He has called me to minister in a way that looks very different from how most people minister. In a world where old wine or a mixture of old and new wine is often the norm, he has called me to walk fully in the new wine.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:02

Oh God. Catherine, your vanity's showing. I know you don't think it is, but I can see it. Hey, listen, don't not all that old wineskin stuff. You don't need all that. And for the reader who's listening, I just want you to know I've been called to this unique anointing. I'm pretty special. Now, I don't know, people out of a lot of people don't know this, but I'm I'm pretty awesome. And you should follow my ministry so you get that new wine, that good wine. Uh, bro, it's wild. Okay, Roundry, I went last time. You go this time.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:33

Oh my gosh. Uh I was just looking up really quick. Um, some of these like proud, arrogant, boastful marks of false teachers. Uh 2 Peter 2 10, Peter calls uh false teachers bold and willful. Uh verse 18, speaking loud boasts of folly. Um Jude talks about um uh Colossians.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:57

I'll I'll help you while you look at Colossians chapter two will say that those who are going about vain imaginations, right, being puffed up by the sensuous mind, going on about dreams and visions, why not holding fast to the head that is Christ?

SPEAKER_02 1:06:09

Yep. Uh Jude 16, they are loud-mouthed boasters. Uh 1st Timothy chapter 6, it says he is puffed up with conceit and understands nothing. Uh Titus 1, uh, it uh probably not the best. Okay. Uh 2 Timothy 3, lovers of self, proud, arrogant, swollen with conceit. Now that's just generally people uh in the last days, uh, so not just teachers, but it is something that we can watch out for. Third John, uh John warns of uh diatrophies who likes to put himself first. Guys, if if Catherine Crick, if John was writing a letter today, could he not say Katherine Crick loves to put herself first? Listen, listen to the sequence. Apostles are the very best. I'm an apostle. Anyone who goes to a ministry that's not mine and that disapproves of my ministry, you're getting old wine or a mixture of old and new wine. But I am unique, I am special. Few people have walked my path, and you follow me, and you will get the flow of blessing and prosperity in your life. Guys, mark and avoid. Mark and avoid. This is Catherine Crick who likes to put herself first. That's third John, but I'm just substituting a name because it's the same thing, and there are more verses that I could go to.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:34

This is just wildness. It's crazy. Like it it's not so often. When you're like, I don't think this person's a safe person. And they just set it up on a t-ball. You know, they just put that, like, oh, here, I'll write it for you to knock it out of the park, Josh. I've written all the things just for you to just bash. Because it's like, this is so blatantly false. No, I want to move into our fifth stage. Again, we we've walked through a couple of different argumentations that I would say would make this really culty and make this a high control environment. Again, apostle and prophets, they're the big ones. Anyone who looks different, it's an old wineskin. Remove any kind of disagreement because those are just teachers. They're not super anointed like I am, preventing people from going anywhere else because, well, you know, you've got to go to the source. You can't be listening to all these other teachers. And I've got this really unique calling that I'm supposed to walk in. You don't need to go anywhere else. And then finally, she's gonna remind and really strike home the pecking order of authority in these next two clips, and maybe we'll just play them back to back.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:32

For example, when my spiritual father anointed me as an apostle, I did not approach it with pride or confidence in my experience. I hadn't gone to Bible college, and I felt totally inadequate. I knew I would need to depend fully on God with humility. I asked my spiritual father many questions. I listened with a teachable heart and received prophetic direction and accepted a direction. But in this relationship, if he is like Elijah, then I am like Elijah, the spiritual child learning and receiving 1 Kings chapter 19, verses 19 to 21, and 2nd Kings chapter 2. Never placing myself on the same level as my spiritual father. These leaders must first be Elijahs if they cannot see themselves as equals, or even close to equals, of their Elijas. This is why he does not anoint several ministers simultaneously. Instead, in his perfect order, God first anoints and sends an apostle to start a church, and then raises up the other offices of ministry to build and equip the body of Christ.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:20

What do you want to do?

SPEAKER_02 1:09:21

There's so much there. I don't know, man. Uh yeah, let's just keep rolling, I guess. Keep rolling, okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:27

It's also important to stay within God's order when it comes to starting a ministry or ministering to others on platforms such as a livestream. Don't rush the process that God is taking you through or begin a ministry prematurely. But when you start a ministry, you are stepping onto different lines, or the devil will send attacks that only those truly called and prepared by God can withstand. The proper order is to first consult your spiritual leader before beginning a ministry. This ensures that you are moving in God's timing and will, and that you remain in submission to the leadership he has placed over you. In doing so, you build rather than scatter, and you stay aligned with the vision God has given to the ministry you are part of. Instead of moving forward with your own separate vision, it's important to stay in line with God's order. Because stepping out of it opens the door for the enemy to drain you and divert you from your calling. Stay diligent to remain teachable and rooted in the new wine doctrine. Excitement and zeal and revival are beautiful, but they can also bring the temptation to act in ways that are out of order and lead to chaos. True revival is not sustained by wild emotion, but by hearts that are fully surrendered to God's order and refined by his fire.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:10

Josh, why don't you start? Okay. Um I just want to start with that first one. Remember at the very beginning of the video that we did today? Uh, in chapter, what is it, chapter four, she just talks about how, you know, we're all called to teach and to to do evangelism, but we can't all just like heal the sick and cast out demons and and do the really cool stuff because we need apostles and prophets over our lives in order to do that. And really they're the only ones that could do the really super stuff. Maybe if we sit under their ministry long enough, we can receive that anointing. But then you ever see her say here, you probably shouldn't start a podcast without permission. Um, you know, because you're gonna paint a target on your back. Well, I thought you just told everyone.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:49

Did you ask permission, Josh, when you started Remnant Radio?

SPEAKER_01 1:10:52

Uh yeah, I talked to my leadership about it. Um, but it was more of a procedural thing, probably, than it was a specific permission sort of thing. Um I don't I don't I don't think I asked like expecting them to say no. I'm like, hey, I'd like to do this podcast. And at the time I was using a space in my local church, so it made sense to ask. Um yeah, so there's that. But also uh she she's saying, hey, you can't teach, you can't do evangel, you can teach, you can do evangelism, but here she's saying you can't even do a podcast without permission. So like what if someone is doing evangelism on their podcast? Like, what if they're like teaching people the Bible on their podcast? The thing that you said they can all do, you're saying no, you can't do that now. You actually have to go through this pecking order and get kind of you know uh acceptance from the person above you, which again I think is so fascinating that the the idea, the level to the level of control is that like if you wanted to tell people about Jesus on a public space, you need permission to do that. I I bet you I I'm not gonna put money on it. Actually, I received anonymous emails. I I probably got 30 emails uh this week from an individual uh who may be an insider at Crick's ministry, uh blowing some whistle stuff. And uh they showed me how Crick was using a you know launch party and had uh unlisted videos that I was sent on YouTube of uh Crick you know trying to rig the New York Times bestseller, um, telling people to buy books from different locations with buy with cash because you then you know uh if you're buying a whole bunch with one card, uh it doesn't count towards the New York Times bestseller. You've got to, you know, in different locations purchase these things. You've also got to, uh oh, she she told stories or the person who was hosting.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:32

She's giving me some ideas for one of my book releases.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:35

That's right. Yeah, you guys buy with cash uh from multiple locations. Uh one of the things that was really interesting that they talked about was how someone was healed of stage four cancer by just promoting this book. Oh no so it's like if you're on the launch team, of course you're gonna promote it because oh, there's gonna be healing and blessing and power that comes from this. Anyway, I say all this to say uh this guy who uh seems to have to be a credible source because he's giving me you know unlisted YouTube videos and lots of information of what's going on behind the scenes. You know, uh I I I if memory serves me correctly, one of the statements he was making is this high control environment specifically about relationships. You know, if you're in uh you've been in a charismatic space, and I've I've been in one or two, where it's really high control about any kind of leadership, any kind of volunteer service, you've got to get it all approved, uh, you know, to do those sorts of things. And if you're in that space, there's often control over other things in your life, like what job you have. Oh, you quit that job without talking to leadership. Oof, that's you're gonna be in trouble. Oh, oh, you you you kind of restructured your life and started dating this person. You know, I hope you talk to leadership about that. Oh, high control. High control environment. And if you can't even start a podcast, bro.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:39

Yeah, elders have authority for governing the affairs of the church. Uh, they don't have authority for governing your life. Like, hey, you can take this job, but not that job. No, no, you you don't get to control that. Uh you can live here, but not there. No, you don't get to control that. Those are their personal life decisions. Now, I'm not saying Crick is controlling in those ways. I am saying the amount of control in these clips that we've seen is concerning, and therefore I would want to know in what other ways is she trying to control things? Uh, that's an open question for me. Um, but yeah, when I listen to this, uh, you know, there's there's such this emphasis on the hierarchy. And what I see in Peter and 1 Peter 5 1 is Peter, who like could have more than anyone else been like, yo, like Jesus called me the rock, bro. Like he could have really held on to that and and thought of his disciples as little underlings, but instead, 1 Peter 5.1, he refers to himself as a fellow elder. It's like he's actually going out of his way to kind of not demote himself, but to just put himself on everybody's level. Like, hey, we're all in this together. And uh, and so hierarchy thing continues to be a big concern to me. Sometimes she just says things that are wrong, like, you know, our Lord doesn't anoint several ministers at once because she's so locked into this Elijah Elisha thing. She makes it the end-all-be-all. But what about when Jesus anoints it says he gave authority uh or Luke's version, authority and power to the twelve, and then he does it again to the 72, all at once. Oh, he only does it like what about Acts 13 when the Holy Spirit says, Set apart from me Barnabas and Saul, whom I've uh you know called to do such and such work. So Acts 2. Yeah, Acts 2, 120 of them. Like God absolutely does anoint several ministers simultaneously, but she's so locked into the hierarchical Elijah Elisha model. And even in that, the the sort of spiritual authority claim is not really there. It's it's clear that Elisha served Elisha. It's uh it refers to Elisha as the one who washed the hands of Elijah, so there was that dynamic going on. Elijah, so so Elisha did serve, but even when you see that, that's an old testament model. When you get to the New Testament, you see Jesus. I come to you as one who serves. Jesus is the one who washes the feet of his disciples. Man, I'd love to see Catherine Crick washing disciples' feet. I'd love to see Catherine Crick lowering herselves beneath the people that she serves instead of sitting up atop a platform like in these videos we see over and over again and receiving praise that sounds like worship. Uh, it's actually the opposite of what we see in the scripture. So I think that's how yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:33

I want to I want to give a comment here uh to the statement. No matter how many years I minister or how much honor I receive, I will always recognize my place as an Elisha, never placing myself on the same level as my spiritual father. What's interesting here is that her spiritual father, we know who he is, uh, he's got some of his own scandal uh, you know, going around. Uh but what's interesting here is that Crick can look to him and say, oh, he's my father, but he does not have the same level of influence that she does. Um while anyone who comes out of her ministry, she is going to claim authority over them and what they can do or not do, because she has got all of this influence and spiritual authority. So she can claim, I'm submitted to this guy. I, you know, I'm I'm I'm devoted to this guy. He's my spiritual father. While anyone who comes out of her ministry who tries to get fame, who tries to get prominence, who who starts beginning to get any kind of influence, she is going to claim them as a byproduct of her ministry and has trained them to do the same kind of thing, that their Elijah was always Crick. And that they will never look beyond that. They will always pay homage to the great and holy and righteous Crick who walks with great authority and power and does that because of her great integris ministry, um, while simultaneously having clips from our prior video telling a mom that she needs to give more money to the church because her child is demonized and is having seizures because she gave money to a witch doctor, a sorcerer, a palm reader, or something to that effect. Uh, and now she has to give even more money to the church in order for the child to be healed. Uh so again, like you've got this person who's got bad character, who's walking in power, if you will, while simultaneously claiming uh, you know, that she has this power because of her own integrity. You over and over, what you're gonna have is you're gonna have this hierarchical system where people have to submit to her because she has submitted to someone else. You look at this and you go, oh, look how holy she is. She submitted to her spiritual father. But I think she's only using this as a ploy to get control over others so that other people will follow in suit, seeing how great and holy and righteous she is so that they can get a glimpse of her anointing. If you don't believe me, go and watch our video uh on Mother's Day. Well, the video wasn't on Mother's Day, our prior video on Catherine Crick, where on Mother's Day, a lot of people, I think it was 15 people's 15 minutes of people just praising Catherine Crick because of all that she has done for them. And it's clear that they believe that the anointing is going to come from that level of honoring. Um, bad stuff, guys. Bad stuff. Roundtree, we've gone over. I know this was not your intention, my friend. Any closing thoughts as we wrap this program up?

SPEAKER_02 1:19:16

Look how much shorter I am. This is this is how long I've been out of it with this sabbatical, Josh. It's like my camera's like all. I think you're just getting older.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:24

And as you get older, you're just losing some you know, I did have a birthday.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:28

I did have a birthday. Yeah. Anyway, uh nah, man. It's a great episode. It's all good. Happy to happy to hop on. And then next week I'm gonna be back in the back in the saddle. So uh exciting to be with you guys. So missed uh missed room and radio, missed my church over the last uh three months, but uh feeling good, restored, ready to go. So uh thankful to uh to be able to hop on today. So thanks guys and and blessings. Josh, you have anything else to say to close us out?

SPEAKER_01 1:19:57

Oh no, thanks for coming on, Michael. I miss you. I'm glad you're back. Uh for those of you watching, subscribe to the channel. Uh like, share, send it around. Uh, this Wednesday, I've got Matt Chandler coming on. Uh, and the following week, Miller and I are going to be doing a review on uh John Bevere's book. Actually, Round Tray, you'll probably be there for that as well if you're coming back next week. So uh yeah, it's gonna be some really good content. Look forward to seeing you guys then. Uh for those of you out there, make sure to subscribe to the video, like, share it around for people who are, you know, not going to watch a video criticizing Catherine Kirk, make sure to send it to them. And then finally, uh, if you're interested in seeing real prophetic ministry, uh, that's not manipulative, uh, that uh will certainly bless your life, but can't promise you any prosperity, you should come to the Remnant Conference in Houston, Texas, October 1st through the 3rd. Uh, we're not promising that it'll solve all your problems. We're not promising that you'll be healthy, wealthy, and blessed, uh, but we are promising. Uh go ahead, Roger. What? But it is a new wineskin. But it is a new wine skin. We are promising new wineskins. Uh it has been a really uh encouraging thing to see charismatics from different streams. Uh, some people who are open uh to the gifts but never seen them demonstrated in a biblical and order way. Uh and then on the other side, people who've been in the hyper charismatic spaces that have been so burned. Uh, man, the remnant conference has just been healing for a whole lot of people to see something that is, man, real and theologically substantive, uh, something that can be done with integrity. So I'd encourage you if you're looking for a new space, uh, a new tribe, if you will, join the remnant. It's not for everybody, but uh it's pretty intense. We we really, really like it. We found our own tribe here, so it's been a lot of fun. Guys, thank you so much for tuning into this program, and we'll see you next time.