History of Magical Arts in the Bible: Egypt & Mesopotamia

Pharaoh's magicians didn't fake it. Exodus 7 says they did the same thing Moses and Aaron did, "by their secret arts." So what does the Bible actually say is happening when magic works?

ABOUT THE EPISODE:
Nelly Van Sickle, pastor at Evergreen Calvary Chapel and creator of The Dancing Toaster Podcast joins Remnant Radio to walk through his "History of Magic" series, a biblical dig into where magic in the Bible actually comes from, starting in the ancient Near East with Egypt and Mesopotamia.

Egypt called its force Heka, something built into the fabric of creation itself, not invoked so much as cooperated with. Mesopotamian mythology named its spirits and negotiated with them directly. If the power on display in Old Testament magic was real, where did it actually come from, and why does Deuteronomy 18 treat some of it as off-limits instead of harmless nonsense? Dr. Michael Heiser used to point out that God doesn't legislate against things that don't exist, and that idea sits underneath this whole conversation: a biblical worldview takes demonology seriously precisely because it takes the supernatural worldview of Scripture seriously.

From there, the conversation turns to names, authority, and who actually gets to use the power of Jesus's name in spiritual warfare (think Sons of Sceva). Nelly also shares how researching the ancient occult reshaped his own theology of the supernatural, moving him from cautious and functionally cessationist toward a more continuationist conviction, wanting to see the gifts of the Spirit practiced rightly.

The occult is surging back into Western culture, and most Christians don't have a framework for it beyond "that's not real" or "don't go near it." This episode is an attempt to give you one. Join us as we trace the history of magic and the authority we have in Christ to stand against it.

0:00 – Introduction
1:19 – Nelly Van Sickle
2:20 – Origins of History of Magic
3:45 – Egyptian Magic in Exodus
8:03 – Mesopotamian Spiritual Worldview
11:47 – Myth of White Magic
16:04 – Naming Spirits and Deities
21:07 – Egypt's Heka System
33:05 – Yahweh's Name and Authority
37:38 – Continuationist Cessationist Testimony
45:36 – Magical Practices and Divination
59:05 – Why Context Matters Today

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Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:38

He forbids certain things, not because they're fictional, but because they exist in some way and and he doesn't want us to go near them because he knows they're dangerous. Heiser used to talk about this all the time. God doesn't put prohibitions on things that are make-believe. So this is um this is not just sleight of hand that they're using. This is not, you know, tricking the people's eyes that says, no, they did the same thing that Moses and Aaron Aaron were doing. Hecka was understood as as a real force, and it was woven into existence. This was not something that was reserved to the margins. Proper magic for them was understood as cooperation with the gods in holding chaos at base. Naming, uh, speaking a being's true name was believed to give leverage or authority over it.

SPEAKER_02 1:24

Hey guys, welcome back. We're gonna dive directly into this program today. We're gonna get into the nitty-gritties of it all. Nelly has released uh at least three episodes there on the Dancing Toaster podcast, describing the history of magic, starting with some of the biblical roots in Egypt and following its way through Mesopotamia and even some modern day content. Today we're gonna be focusing, I think, the most as possible, on the uh biblical framework because I think it's really interesting and helps give some context to what the Bible is talking about when the Bible talks about various kinds of magical activities. Um without further ado, I want to give an opportunity to Nelly uh to talk a little bit about himself and his ministry. For people who want to connect with you, Nelly, we're gonna put a link in the description of this video. We'll probably do uh, what do you call that? A contributor link so they can just literally click the video and then jump over to your podcast and check out your material. Uh, but tell us a little about yourself before we dive in.

SPEAKER_03 2:15

Oh man. Well, I'm a pastor up here in the Pacific Northwest. Evergreen Calvary Chapel is the church my wife and I planted here. And I launched The Dancing Toaster almost two years ago. Uh, it's a podcast that focuses on the supernatural and the paranormal. I I wanted to kind of open Christians' eyes and minds up to these interesting topics, how to a way to think about them biblically in a way that was a little more hands-on than some of the other kind of fringe Christian podcasts that are out there. Um, but I also I'm surrounded by the occult and surrounded by mythology and new age stuff and big Bigfoot stuff is huge up here too. So I said, how can I reach these people who are not real quick to want to talk about Jesus, but they'll talk about these things and then I get to bring Jesus in. So having a lot of fun with that.

SPEAKER_02 2:58

What what started this stream of thought, history of magic? I remember in one of your podcasts you were trying to study for uh, was it like Salem witch trials? And then you're like, well, like the teacher in you had to keep going back to source references and and this links to this and this links to that, and you you suddenly look like the crazy guy from the meme with all the string on the wall and a cigarette in his hand. Try to figure it all out. Uh uh so so uh what what brought the inspiration of history of magic?

SPEAKER_03 3:23

So my uh my toasties, they're my patrons on Patreon. They one of the biggest requests for content was on like Alistair Crowley or Crowley, sorry, I get corrected on the pronunciation. Alistair Crowley, uh Golden Dawn, that kind of stuff. They're like, hey, why don't you talk about these things? And uh as I started to dig a little bit, uh they that as you first look at it, there's all these things that assume you know what it's talking about, but I had no idea. So I said, well, what does this mean? Then what does that mean? And what does that mean? And it takes me back and back and back and back. And I just kept going back further and further and further. I said, This is fascinating. And because it's so prevalent up here, they just built a Barnes and Noble by me, which is wonderful because my wife and I love Barnes and Noble. So we'll we'll go there. And the Christian book section is like this big, but the occult book section is like an entire wall. So this stuff is big up here. So I said, man, this is gonna be great for my for my members that are requesting this kind of content. They want me to talk about these topics, but it's really gonna create conversations with those that actually believe these things and live by these things where I live here in the Pacific Northwest.

SPEAKER_02 4:23

Yeah, so you start with Egypt and kind of work your way out, and that kind of makes sense from a at least a biblical paradigm, um, because some of the first occultic-like activity we do see in the book of Exodus. Now, to be fair, you've got Abraham, he's probably worshiping a moon god, you know, you've got uh prior to conversion, I mean, uh, with the folks in his region. Uh there's definitely paganism in that they're worshiping false gods, and here, you know, Abraham comes on the scene as a worshiper of Yahweh. Uh so there that that kind of thing is happening in the book of Genesis, but we see some kind of explicit mention of that taking place in Egypt. So, where did your research lead you when it came to finding magic within Egyptian context? And I don't think that you're claiming that magic originated in Egypt, but maybe you could fill in the blanks for me.

SPEAKER_03 5:08

Yeah, no, it definitely didn't originate there. I did the I did the episodes out of order. I started with Egypt on purpose because that's where I could demonstrate magic in the Bible most clearly. I mean, when it when it says Exodus 7 that the magicians did the same by their secret arts, that two things stick out in in that passage. Did the same, meaning came the same, same as what Moses had just done with Aaron, and then how they did it was by their secret arts. Or yeah, uh later on when it's said a second time in chapter seven and then again in chapter eight, the idea behind secret is is is like esoteric, the the English word that we would use for esoteric. So this is um this is not just sleight of hand that they're using. This is not you know tricking the people's eyes that says, no, they did the same thing that Moses and Aaron Aaron were doing. The the verbiage is is is clear in my opinion, and they were doing it by their secret art. So I wanted to demonstrate like when the when the Bible displays supernatural power coming from the kingdom of darkness, it's a very real thing. Heiser used to talk about this all the time. God doesn't put prohibitions on things that are make-belief. What why make rules against these things in Deuteronomy if if it if it's all just nonsense? I remember he he talked about, you know, why God doesn't need to make a rule that says, hey, don't jump over any uh any skyscrapers. Well, because the chances of you jumping over a skyscraper are very thin. So he didn't need to make a rule for that, but but he says, hey, don't go trying to talk to the dead or anything. And and this so he he lays out these rules for he forbids certain things, not because they're fictional, but because they exist in some way, and and he doesn't want us to go near them because he knows they're dangerous. So I go to Egypt first because that's where I could most clear, clearly demonstrate the existence of nefarious supernatural power being used by human beings, not originating with human beings. And that's another thing Deuteronomy makes really clear. You know, they they they worshipped the the the shadim, the the demons that that were not God. Uh so they're they're tapping into real things, they're doing real things, and Egypt is where I could demonstrate that biblically. And then the following episode, I went to Mesopotamia. I took it a little further back in the timeline to like prehistoric origins of magic and just ancient people looking at the world and realizing the world is more than just what we can experience with the senses, that there was a spiritual reality that the Bible confirms exists, but even before the pages of scripture were written, ancient man knew something instinctively that there's more to this world, to my existence than what I can experience with my five senses. And they began to see it as at first, how do I survive this? You know, in the same way that I got to survive a storm. When some they did tend to blame everything on a supernatural cause, you know, the further back you go, uh ancient man, you know, oh, I'm I'm sick. There must be something nefarious spiritually going on. The gospels confirm that can be the case, but it's not always the case that if somebody's you know falls ill that it's that it that's it's it's some evil spirit, right? But just this is a really old idea. I wanted to demonstrate that in the Mesopotamian example. But what they were doing to combat some of these things, it's like, okay, well, if this evil spirit caused me to have this affliction, I'm gonna call on a stronger spirit that's gonna scare this one away, either through an incantation of some kind or or some kind of talisman that they would they would use. And the idea is like this spiritual being is bigger and stronger than this one and is and is is it's gonna scare it off. So sorry, that's kind of the shotgun.

SPEAKER_02 8:36

I wanna I want to start with Mesopotania because you you mentioned again historically, chronologically, they come first. And I I think that's probably true because even when I'm reading the story of of Moses, Genesis, you know, one through six, when I preach this as a at my church, I said this is these are historical events told in a polemical way. Um, to say that I believe that these events actually took place, but they're they're told in this polemical way. And I don't think we're supposed to read it with a an over-literal wooden literalism in in the text, because as I've studied uh the text, it seems as if that there is this Mesopotamian creature in Genesis that uh is being subdued by Yahweh in the creation narrative. And uh when I see that, I go, man, I think that's actually the context of what's taking place here. And some are you know, writers have you know kind of speculated that, like, oh, this is Mesopotamian, it's not Egyptian, how could Moses have written this? You can do just a little bit of research, quite a bit of the Egyptian mythology is just based off of Mesopotamian theology, which isn't a shocker. Everyone's just copying the gods and trying to repackage them with their own brands. Uh so I I don't find it uh any kind of uh discontinuity. In fact, I find there's a lot of continuity between the Mesopotamian worldview and that of the Egyptian worldview, so it makes sense to start there to me. Uh, give me kind of foundation when you started doing your research and looking into Mesopotamian practices. What was their worldview about the unseen world? How did they believe in and practice things like magic?

SPEAKER_03 10:03

So first things first, I I'm not as cool as like a Joel Mutamale, right? I'm no scholar, I'm purely a layman. These these are these are things I I I'm doing the best that I can with the with this the stuff that I talk about. I'm no expert, is basically what I'm saying. But as I as I research these things, I love to read, I love to study, and I love to teach, right? And so uh with with the Mesopotamians, uh again, ign seeing and understanding that the world was more than what they could see, taste, touch, smell, interact with physically, that there was a spiritual reality, and that they wanted to seek protection from said spiritual realities, right? Uh and again, the illness example is the the easiest one to kind of make. It's like assuming that everything has a that that what is done in the spirit world, in the unseen realm, affects the physical world and and and even vice versa, right? And I think the the the Bible helps to shine some light on that. Not maybe not as much as they would have seen it or understood it as a one-for-one, but but we in some way the things that are happening in the unseen realm very much affects the physical world and vice versa. You can get into Daniel and things with, you know, God's dispatching an angel and he's being held up by the Prince of Persia. There, there's just so many different places to go, and my mind are kind of rabbit trails. But in Mesopotamia, they're they're they're seeking understanding early on with this unseen realm, but they're also, I think, primarily seeking protection, protection from a chaotic physical world. And they're seeing, okay, the things that are going on in the physical world are being acted upon by unseen forces, and we want to seek to appease these unseen forces. And eventually over time, it becomes more than just appeasement. I think as I as I dig, you know, it it's what starts with appeasement eventually becomes a desire for mastery, becomes a desire for uh I I don't just want to appease this this being or this deity. I I I want to utilize it for my benefit. I I want it to then do something for me, whether it's protect me from another evil spirit, but then as as time develops, I want this thing to go do something to my neighbor's farm. I want him to do something to my neighbor's cattle, those kinds of things. And then you can get into what is typically deemed by you know practitioners of these things as like, oh, that's you know, black magic or you know, anything anything nefarious. Well, that's the bad stuff, and we're only worried about the bad stuff. But there's there's white magic. No, there isn't. I mean, from a biblical perspective, and that's a major argument that I make on this this series, is that there there is no uh white magic, there's no innocent occult practices that anytime we are delving into that when you're seeking supernatural power outside of Yahweh, you are operating in forbidden territory. I I think the Bible makes that that that very clear, right? And so in Mesopotamia, they're seeking to understand the unseen realm, they're seeking to appease the unseen realm, and that is where some of the first places we see them trying to systematize these things, right? Well, this spirit this spirit is what's associated with this illness. Hey, the i I I think all these women that they're they're they're losing their child uh in in in when they give birth, they're losing the baby. I think there's an evil spirit that is associated with the the slaughtering of these children, with the death of these children. So we want to whatever we got to do to ward off this particular, and there were several different names for these kinds of spirits, but one eventually would would emerge. Uh, you know, that's the whole Lilith stuff that I got to talk about with with Miller. But even in Mesopotamia, you know, Lamashtu and those kinds of things, you had these spirits that could affect the unborn. Because mortality rate, you know, much much much higher back back in the ancient day. That's no mystery, but they saw a spiritual cause for it. They wanted to appease these forces, and as time developed, we want to master these forces, we want to use them uh a little more utilitarian.

SPEAKER_02 14:02

Yeah, that sounds like human nature. You know, I'm thinking of the rise and triumph of the modern self. And in that book, Carl Truman describes how technology affects the psyche. Because, you know, you've got uh I think he called them ancient man or medieval man, or not, it wasn't medieval man. It was like uh, I think it was ancient man, something like that. Uh, he talked about how everything was faded, right? If it rained, he got to eat. If it didn't rain, he died. It was determined by fate. Uh, but as uh they began to invent various forms of agriculture, uh they were able to exert mastery over the agriculture. Oh, if it doesn't rain, that's fine. I've got in I've got plumbing now that can take care of this. I've got some some irrigation that can water the farm. And and it begins to affect the way that we view ourselves. Uh, not only is everything is determined, deterministic, but actually I am a master. I have control over the thing. He talked about even the technological advancements, advancements of the light bulb, how the light bulb before it existed, the workday was already scheduled. It was predetermined, kind of a sun-up, a sundown sort of situation. But now that we have a light bulb, we can start working nocturnally. We can do whatever we want. We've exerted our mastery over creation. And he he makes the argumentation that this affects the psyche and how we view self. Because when you have determined every single part of nature you have control over, I can work in darkness, I can irrigate during droughts, I can uh determine when life begins by these various contraceptives. And again, I'm not making any kind of moral argument against these sorts of things, uh, but you begin to affect uh the way that you're viewing the world, that you are sovereign, and and you start getting into areas where you're like, I can determine the difference between male and female. And I want to change my gender. I can do that because I have exerting myself over creation opposed to recognizing that God has created a certain world that I exist within and I live under those laws. So I think human heart is always trying to make a leap into the chair of the throne, if you will, and will do that by any means necessary. Carl Truman has seemed to have recorded how we do that with technology, kind of more naturalistic worldview. What I hear you describing is that same kind of thing from a supernatural worldview. Um, feel free to correct the record if I've overspoken it anyway. Uh, but if not, maybe we can adjust uh the way that we're you know discussing this. How did they come to this information? Was it through experimentation? Hey, here's this person that's sick. And I know it might not be the case that we have any record of this, but hey, this person has this issue. Do we just start naming out spirits? Were they going to channel spirits to get secret information in order to make sense of what names to you know invoke in order to uh cause evil spirits to leave or to take power of other spirits? I mean, help help it help me fill in the blanks here.

SPEAKER_03 16:57

Well, I I I think from a biblical perspective, God has written eternity on the heart of man, right? So so the the this idea that again the world is more than what we can see, taste, touch, smell. They have that sense, that that sense ancient man does. And and over time, and and again, the the nuts and bolts of it I'm no expert, right? But they they see the the the world was experienced as crowded, reactive, dangerous, it's morally complicated, and and from that they well, misfortune it can't be meaningless. So sickness, infertility, nightmares, you know, these sudden deaths that we talked about, then eclipses, celestial events, and these kinds of things eventually begin to be read all as messages or spiritual consequences, and they want to seek understanding. And then they devise means for protection against those things, whether it be specialists, amulets, uh, omens, counter-rituals devised to kind of try and combat this chaotic or the the physical world is chaotic, the spiritual world must be equally chaotic, and one influences the other. As far as the emergence of the various names of these creatures and deities that they uh I I mean, I talked about quite a few in the Mesopotamia episode from Lamashtu, Pazuzu, Alu, Utuku, the Atemu. There's there's all kinds of even the Lilu and the Lilitu. And as far as how they would begin to assign uh this one's responsible for this one, I I mean, these these are things that I'm sure developed culturally amongst them. Where did they come up with these things? I'm sure some of them are cultural. I am of the school of thought that gets into, I know we don't like to venture too far into like Enochian material, but in like the Book of the Watchers, first, you know, uh first first Enoch material talks about at Mount Hermon, you know, if if you accept the Genesis 6 kind of worldview, that this exchange happened, that yes, they they took up took up took for themselves wives, Genesis 6 says, but the Enochian literature suggests that there was an exchange that took place for the wives, they gave knowledge. So I am of the belief, tying back to the Mesopotamian stuff, how ancient does this stuff go? Where did where does it start? I personally believe it was these beings, whether or not it's how Enoch describes it or not, but I think these beings in the same way that that one particular being, the Nahash, the you know, Satan initiated and said, Hey, uh, he's withholding something from you. You could actually be like God if you were to partake of the thing that he told you not to. And I I think that similar beings in rebellion came and they revealed some of these secret arts, right? That we see Pharaoh's magicians utilizing, you know, uh later on, right? A few hundred years after that. So so the practices that they they wanted to influence the world. They they wanted a lot of it had to do with fertility, right? I I mean, well, we're gonna do this thing because we want to appease this entity that's gonna hopefully influence our ability to conceive, or uh the fertility of my my my land. Oh, I'm gonna try to appease this deity. So much of r ancient religion is tied to that's why I said Heka, uh Egyptian religion, Hecca. I mean, it was one in the same. It wasn't like magic here, religion here. It was like, no, no, no, no. I think what I think they were closer to things than the Egyptians would be, because later on, I don't want to jump ahead if we're not ready to go there yet, but but when she by the time you get to Egypt and Hecca, which is the system that they began to implement it, is is it becomes less attached to entities and begins to be seen more as I guess one of the best analogies is like electricity. Electricity is amoral, right? And we have we we discovered it and then we have uh figured out ways to tap into it, to utilize it to power our various devices and our lives. And like you said, we overcame the dark with the light bulb, and we we send electricity through that filament, and it's that's how we how we get light. Uh I think by the time the Egyptians get their hands on these things, they try to make it a little more neutral. Electricity is neutral, but the but the supernatural power that the Bible makes very clear does exist. It is not neutral, it is either coming from him or it is coming from the nefarious powers that are in rebellion against him. And the the Egyptians is the first place where they start to muddy the pool, right? And we do know that in in Deuteronomy it it's uh Moses makes it very clear. They they worship the Shadim, the demons that were not God, gods that were not known by their by their fathers. So it it is the malevolent powers that enable these things to happen, real things. I I think they saw those things. Did they know that those beings were malevolent? Of course not, because they're deceptive. As as as much as they are deceptive, uh they they they are malevolent. Satan comes to skies as an angel of light, right? So I I think they began to test the waters. Certain things worked, they began to systematize those things. Um, and now I'm kind of rabbit trailing again, you'll have to forgive me. But uh that's fine.

SPEAKER_02 22:03

No, that's a it's that's a fascinating concept. So like in Mesopotamia, you have what you would call high-handed rebellion. What we have in Egypt you might consider a almost a kind of, you know, there there's a there's a push right now in Marvel movies. You you guys have seen this kind of thing that like it's not really magic that Thor has, it's actually really advanced technology, right? And what, you know, I I've talked to what would be considered a modern witches today, depending on which one you're talking to. I mean, obviously everyone has a different school of thought here, but I've talked to some folks who would be like, Yep, I'm channeling spirits. I have other people who are saying, No, there's just energies in the universe that I'm channeling. These are just kind of neutral energies, you know, pulling on energy from different dimensions or frequencies or vibrations. And you're you're talking about electricity. They're they're appealing to an undiscovered power source, like you would think. Of the magnetic poles. You know, if you magnetize a needle and you put it on a cork and you put it in a bottle of water, and you're like, look, it's pointing north. I don't know how it does that, but through some kind of scientific deduction and over process, we realize it's pointing the same direction. Hey, look, this works. There's some kind of force in the universe. So what you're saying is that in Egypt, there was the same kind of mentality that there was some kind of force, uh, maybe a universal law or principle of a frequency, a vibration. It might be modern language that we would use to describe something like that, that they are attempting to channel, while in the Mesopotamian system, it was more centralized under the power of certain deities or beings. Am I hearing you right?

SPEAKER_03 23:33

Yes. That's kind of how I presented it. And again, I did it out of order because I wanted Egypt to be the springboard because I was trying to use the Bible before, you know, to demonstrate, hey, Christian, these powers exist. They're in the Bible, and and then kind of trait trace that back a little further. But yeah, when you when you get to Egypt, uh I'm sorry, go ahead.

SPEAKER_02 23:54

I was gonna say, so Prince of Egypt got it wrong, you know, like when they were when they're like the power of Ra, like when they're doing their little magic spell. Do you remember that song? There's a metal version of it that totally slaps, and people need to go check out. Anyway, but as you were, I apologize, interrupting.

SPEAKER_03 24:07

No, you're good. Well, but when it comes to Egypt, Hecca is the system, and Hecca was understood as a real force, it and it was woven into existence. It it this was not something that was reserved to the margins. This was not superstition. Heka, every everyone, uh everyone ascribed to it, everyone was on board. Hecca was upheld by Mat, uh, the that's the Egyptian ideal of truth and balance, justice, cosmic order, all that. So proper magic for them was understood as cooperation with the gods in holding chaos at bay. So that there's there's the men, this is kind of a transitionary period, right? Hecca is ingrained in in everything, and we're trying to maintain the balance with the gods. We're trying to hold chaos at bay. There's still this understanding that that, hey, this the physical world is super chaotic, the spiritual world is chaotic, we want to that we want to seek this balance, and and Hecca is how we're gonna do that. And and so yeah, uh it's not all the way one or the other, is what I'm I'm I'm saying. You you you you see trying to defend against these things, and then you kind of Egypt is transitioning into we're trying to cooperate with these things, utilize them. It's this is a part of everyday life, so it's gonna it's gonna interact with everything that we say and do. And then I I think late later on is when it becomes a little bit divorced from where it becomes the most dangerous, is when it does get presented as something that is like electricity. I think that's when it's the most dangerous, when they're trying to say, oh, these are just uh energies you don't have to worry about. And I think, you know, like you mentioned the Marvel movies, I love to pick on those because I used to be a big, you know, Marvel fanboy, and I I talked about that with Miller a little bit. I got a lot of kickback too, because they're like, oh, he hates Thor, but he's got Goser on the shelf back there from Ghostbusters. I was like, come on, guys, Gozer is fictional. But Thor, this is an entity that was worshipped and is still worshipped in Washington, by the way. I have met were worshippers of Thor and Odin. Asatru is actually really big up here, which which my wife thought was was was wild, because it it is, but uh in in any case, you had mentioned something earlier too, that these these beings, these entities, they just rebrand over time. That that that's I think the greatest example of that is when you look at the Greco-Roman pantheon. It's like there's almost a one-for-one for each one as it transitioned from the Greeks to the Romans. They just borrowed all of them and changed the name. But I think the more you try and make it benign or or neutral is when it becomes more dangerous because the Bible says, no, these powers are real and they're not neutral. And I think one of the Christian temptations is to not acknowledge how much we've allowed naturalism to affect our way of viewing the supernatural. There are some believers that hate the term supernatural. They find that it has no explanatory power. I think it, I think it does. I think Exodus 7, when they did the same by their secret arts, lets us know this is not some unknown technology. It's not saying Pharaoh's magicians were were were able to figure out this really cool piece of technology. I mean, we also don't understand how much we're allowing all of the ancient alien theorists to in uh uh infect Christian views of history and the supernatural and those kinds of things. I don't think Pharaoh's magicians had some unknown technology. I I think they really did have a secret knowledge, an esoteric knowledge that allowed them to tap into forces that they did not see as nefarious, but Satan rarely announces himself as nefarious. Paul says he comes disguised as an angel of light. Uh, I I think that's how he is most effective is duping people into get involved in this stuff, but this stuff wrecks you. And every time you talk to somebody who comes out of that, they bought into the neutrality, they bought into it's not, it's that, oh, those Christians, they're overreacting. It's not really that. But every practitioner of the occult that I've listened to, that I've talked to, when they come out, they say, Oh no, this stuff is very real. It's not neutral, it almost killed me. It it nine times out of ten.

SPEAKER_02 28:06

That's kind of um, so yeah, that it it it's I you'll be told by that people who by people who are still in it, right? Like people who are still in it are like, you've got to be careful to do your spell just right, or else you'll get you could be harmed, right? Like, and it always comes down to, oh, I I got in real danger, I almost died, but it's because I did my spell wrong. Like, pretty common conversation I've had with people in that space or have come out of that space. I'm I'm I'm really interested because you know, you mentioned in one sense, it is partnership with the divine to bring the divided world into order while simultaneously saying that it wasn't necessarily calling upon spirits, which I think is interesting, because you know, ancient Egypt has a pantheon of pantheons. I mean, they had a god for everything, you know. Uh you got a dung beetle who rolls the sun across the sky, you got one who's, you know, dog boy who leads people through hell. I mean, my uncle is an Egyptologist, right? So uh in his old room from when he was in uh high school, he painted the the the Book of the Dead on the wall where uh I think it's Horace who walks you through and he's got the you know, puts the feather on the scale and weighs it against your human heart to see which you know weighs more and it gets you into the afterlife. So when I go to Thanksgiving in Arkansas to, you know, be with my family, and we we go into his room and it's it's got this beautiful painting that he's done, it's got this big headdress of a Pharaoh. Anyway, but like even Pharaoh was viewed as divine to some capacity. So we've got a very large pantheon, and yet they didn't view magic as being empowered by the gods, but partnering with the gods. Am I hearing that right?

SPEAKER_03 29:37

Yeah, well, I mean, even in into specifically uh naming, uh speaking a being's true name was believed to give leverage or authority over it. So it's not that it was void of of these entities. They saw this force that was a part of everything throughout creation, both the seen and the unseen. But uh as far as we we draw very hard lines between the good and the bad as far as spiritual entities are concerned. Other belief systems, that's not the case. Uh Japan is is really big on that too. I I mean you do have some evil spirits, you have some benevolent spirits, and then you got some neutral ones that are somewhere in the middle. And and when you approach it from a biblical perspective, there there is no neutrality really. I mean, I don't find any neutral entities throughout the Bible as far as the spirit realm is concerned. You're either with Yahweh or you're against Yahweh, but like, for example, death. Death is an inevitability, right? To the to the ancient man, they knew everyone was gonna die. How you died was up for, you know, up to the gods to decide when it was gonna happen, how it was gonna happen. You hoped that collaboration with them, or maybe even trying to appease the god of death or the entity associated with death, trying to appease him or co come into uh an agreement with him to perhaps extend one's life. So it's not that the the gods were or or there, those those entities that they worshipped were not involved in this system of Hecca, but but Hecca was as again this force that went throughout. And yes, they would petition these beings who are in the unseen, especially again, naming is when this really starts to emerge. Uh, and and and I I I bring that up because I it it's it stuck out to me because my conversation with Miller last weekend, because he was he was in in Washington and uh we were talking about naming, and I was, you know, I was kind of asking him about the relevancy of being able to name even in Christian exorcism or in deliverance practices, the the uh ability to name uh we see Jesus, you know, obtaining the name of Legion, for example. Not that he needed it. I I I mean Jesus uh has the authority over these beings without needing to know their name, but we do have him giving an example of that. And we had just a fascinating conversation about that. But I did find it interesting that all the way back to Egypt, there is this idea that knowing the name of the of the entity could give leverage over it. And I I found that interesting, especially because what do we believe these beings to have been? According to Deuteronomy, according to First Corinthians, we believe them to have been uh uh demons, all right? The the the shadim or the shades. But they they have this whole hierarchy, hostile beings be being threatened with a greater deity. That's the Mesopotamian influence, you know, get a greater deity to exert power over the lesser ones. They they bring those Mesopotamian thoughts in to be sure, but Hecus that force that begins to again permeate throughout the world, both the seen and the unseen. And yes, the gods, their their gods were very much involved in the process. I don't want to make it seem as though they they weren't at all, and the naming being the most fascinating part of that for me, that at least it's sticking out.

SPEAKER_02 32:51

But yeah, well, I think that that's interesting because you look at religions across the world, you you can find some similarities to what they're doing with Christianity. Uh, for example, Hindus can pray on their knees, Muslims can pray on their knees. I would imagine various traditions, the physical posture of being prostrate would be a symbol of humility, um, even biologically, you know, um, giving access to someone being able to strike your vitals pretty easily and no ability to defend yourself. That that's kind of a picture that is somewhat universal. The idea of prayer communing with for Christians, the monotheistic singular one God, uh other mm, you know, religions are gonna want to commune with spirits as well, but but various spirits, not the one true Yahweh, but those kinds of things. So I don't know for me that commonality, similarity, therefore dictates fixture. I don't think that you're making that claim necessarily. I I would always be concerned when I saw something outside of the Christian religion that I see in other religions being practiced, right? So like uh freak frequent energy channeling, right? Like I don't want anyone in the Christian space energy channeling. I don't see that in the Bible. However, I do see in the scriptures Yahweh's name being exercised to compel demons, right? To command spirits to go. But but tell me a little bit, because there seems to be a connection here. Uh who is it that's sending me? And God speaks to Moses and it says, like, tell them I am. Not really a name. You know, uh, we we go into the New Testament and Jesus uses these echo, I'm me statements over and over in the Gospel of John, um, claiming to be the same I am of the burning bush, which is fascinating. Uh, but but tell me what's the what's the relevance to that if exerting a name was how you invoked the power of that deity, but the deity in this case is saying I am the eternally existent one, you know, like that uh doesn't quite answer the question in the way I think people would want it. Uh what's the significance of that magic?

SPEAKER_03 34:51

I think authority is is huge when we're talking about all of these things. Uh uh ultimately we see, you know, the monotheistic God as the ultimate authority of both the seen and the unseen realms, right? But but authority, the authorization to to utilize these things, even even within Egypt and Mesopotamia, some of the things that would begin to develop is is and even in later esoteric expressions, it's not for everybody, is it? That's that's the whole thing betoned esoteric, it is is secret, right? That this Gnosticism was really big first, you know, first, second, third century. You know, these idea the idea that there's this secret knowledge that's just for the chosen few. So we we we see we see how that can begin to be used to control people, exert uh force your authority over somebody else, but in the name of another. But yeah, for sure was not was not suggesting that uh naming what was something uh nefarious by any means. And I like that you used the the the prayer example, right? Uh Miller had used that exact thing. Somebody had asked him a question. We were having this discussion. He says, Well, will Muslims pray? And they may get on their knees when they pray. Does that mean that Christians can't get on their knees and pray? No, the the the commonality between those two things that that's that's what I'm saying. Did he source me?

SPEAKER_01 36:07

Did he cite me? Because we get we me and Miller get in debates, and I I have brought that one up to him. So I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. That's it.

SPEAKER_03 36:15

But but but I loved that because and that stuck with me. I mean, I've been thinking about that all week. Because uh I don't I don't know how much Miller has show shared with you about kind of my own journey. I I uh the show has really changed my mind about a lot of these things, and and he was like, Man, for being a Calvary Chapel guy, you certainly entertain a lot of ideas that don't fit into the Calvary Chapel kind of motif. And I said, Oh, I'm a kind of red-headed stepchild in Calvary Chapel right now. Um, but but I I I have had my mind greatly changed by uh by my journey on the show and and the the things that I've uh observed through the stories that I tell and the things that I've researched and and and whatnot. But uh authority is big. And these these entities, uh as odd as it may seem, they they are in rebellion against God, to be sure. But when Jesus stepped on the scene, we can see the authority that he exhibited over the kingdom of darkness. They didn't have a choice. When when he said leave, they had to leave. So these one practitioner, a former practitioner of the occult, I forget who it was that I I was having the discussion with, but they they they said something to the effect that these entities are legalists, you know, that they that that they have have their own kind of rules and systems that that that they follow. They do enter into even contracts with with people. When you talk to witches and things, people that came out of that life, you know, uh familiar spirit. What is that? There that's that's basically a spirit that they form a spiritual contract with that uh they think is going to do things on their behalf or give them certain abilities or the the ability to influence people or have certain knowledge. So obviously there is power available, right? And this is this is where I have been, I listened to Remnant a lot back in the day, uh, and have recently, you know, through through the last year and a half started to listen more and more and more. I had a bad experience with with a quote unquote deliverance ministry very early on in my Christian faith, and uh really turned me off to the charismatic movement, to the gifts altogether for for quite a quite a season with with in my walk with the Lord. Uh, I became, you know, you can still see my massive Johnny Mack, you know, commentaries back there. I still love John MacArthur and I believe him to be there there with the Lord, bless him. So kind of the the the whole thing is is I I'm I'm approaching it from the negative powers, right? As I'm doing the history of magic, I'm the Bible is showing me that negative, supernatural, malevolent, maybe that's a better word, malevolent supernatural power exists. There are practitioners of it, there are those that utilize it, uh, that are bringing harm uh and sin into the world, right? But with what you guys do with Remnant and with, you know, Calvary Chapel is is charismatic. Uh we we are continuationists on paper, but we are cessationists in practice, many of us. I I say that to my shame. I was I was just confessing that to him last week. And I said, Yeah, I said, Miller, I believe in these things, but because of the negative experiences that I've had, it's made me very cautious and maybe even fearful at times to engage. But as I've seen, are there similarities between the practices? Yes, supernatural power exists. There's malevolent, and then there is the only benevolent power is that which is given by God. No one has on both sides, no one has any power in and of themselves. When Tepharao's magicians were doing what they did, they didn't have the power themselves. They were, you know, utilizing the power from these malevolent beings. These these shadim are empowering them to mimic at least up to four of Moses and Aaron's miracles. And there is power available to the New Testament believer, to the follower of Jesus. The power of the Holy Spirit is is just as real, but it isn't, of course, we're not saying it's equal. It's far surpassed because it's in the name of Jesus that we have been sent out to do the these things. And I just I had a great time, you know, getting to go to the conference that that Miller did is is because I've listened to you guys talk about these things on the show, but getting to see him present these things to to the audience there was was was a huge blessing. And it is just right where I'm kind of at in this journey of my own personal, you know, journey with with the gifts and wanting to wanting to embrace them, wanting to see them practice rightly. Um and I and I got to see a taste of that. And I and I and I want more, but I'm really cautious and I always get excited. I'm sharing all these stories with my wife till like 2 a.m. because I didn't get home till 12:30 because it was quite a drive, but I get I kept her up till close to two, and I was like, oh man, church is tomorrow. We need to go to bed, you know. But the power exists, humans don't have it. We need it from the other side. God offers power in the name of Jesus. I we we we never are the source of power, and even the practitioners of the malevolent never had it in an in in themselves. They had to get it from somewhere else. I wanted to expose in my series where they're getting it from. I want to acknowledge, hey, it exists, but it's not what you think it is. You're not interacting with malevolent entities when you are practicing X, Y, and Z. The God of the Bible, the one true God, reveals those things are dangerous. They're real, they're real dangerous. Stay away, right? But then in the New Testament we see that there is malevolent or benevolent power available to the born-again believer, not in and of themselves. We're not, we're we're not superheroes now that we're Christians. We we don't have special powers now. But in the name of Jesus, that's the name that we exercise authority with. Is the is is it's his power, it's his authority that is operating in us and through us to to do anything. Um, and and Jesus said, I mean, you can't even go to McDonald's without me. Those weren't his words exactly, but John 15, 5, I mean, apart from me, you can do nothing. And if that's true in the physical, it's more than true in in the spiritual as as well. So yes, there's there's there's power in his name, and and I am excited about where I'm at in my in my walk with the Lord, both from the series and and with with with what you guys do. I was telling my wife, I was like, okay, if if we don't go to Remcon, we're gonna we're gonna we're gonna stream it or something.

SPEAKER_02 42:24

We we well Nelly, we're man, it's excited about your journey. And uh, if you decide to come out to the conference, we'll make sure to get you in there for free. Uh that would be an easy thing to do. But maybe you're out there and you're like Nelly, uh, you're watching this program and you want to start taking some first steps into spiritual gifts. Maybe you've been in a cessationist space that doesn't believe in those sorts of things, and you're now theologically convinced, but you haven't seen anything like that. Or, or maybe you're in the hyper charismatic space, like Nelly uh seems to have had experiences with, where things are kind of uh unhinged and crazy. Well, conferences are a great place to uh see the theological training and demonstration of those things. But I'd also want to point you to our e-course that's releasing August 19th, the Introduction to Spiritual Gifts e-course. That is a 10-week in-depth discipleship program where you have a small group leader, live Q ⁇ A with us every week, and online video material that trains you. Now, the way that it works is we teach you what the Bible says about tongues. We're not saying repeat after me, backup show, now you speak in tongues. That's absurd. Uh, we teach you what the Bible says about those things. Then we do live QA where you can ask your questions with the host, and then we break out in a small group and we pray and we ask God to do the thing that we saw in the scriptures just moments before, whether that be healing, prophecy, etc. So if that's something that interests you, I would encourage you to check out the link in the description over at therunatradio.com and register for that course today. But I want to circle back around to the um Yahweh statement or the uh the ego I mean statement. That's the Greek rendering of it, but in the Hebrew, the I am has sent you. And here in that passage, it seems clear to me that the reason Moses doesn't have the name of God, but the the name that he's given is I'm the ever-existent one, is because Moses cannot claim that he is using the name of Yahweh to perform miracles. Yahweh is using Moses, so he's not exerting their authority over God, God is exhorting authority over him. Yeah, go ahead.

SPEAKER_03 44:20

Can I and I you just made me think of something that said because I I was looking for it and looking for it, but my my mind's a mess right now. But sons of Skeva, I they're they're the opposite example, right? Because they had the correct name, but not the authorization because they did not have personal fellowship with you know uh Paul I uh Jesus, I know when Paul I recognize, but who are you, you know, and and that that that demonized man left all seven of them. They ran through the city of Ephesus bloody and naked, and it says it's like, oh man, that and that trauma. The whole city. They're like, man, we're destroying all of our occult items. They're having these massive bonfires through the streets of Ephesus. So, so so so you're you're right. You know, we don't get to dictate anything to him at all. And oh, even ancient Israel, because even my third episode in the series is when Israel tries to treat Yahweh or the objects of Yahweh, i.e. the ark, as magical talismans. And I say, that doesn't work. Remember when they tried to use the ark to twist Yahweh's arm to give them victory over battle? And he said, Oh, that's cute. And they got whooped by the Philistines when they tried to use the ark as a talisman because Yahweh was saying, I will not be manipulated. My power is real and I will make it available to my people. But you never get to dictate when or how. It is always, always, always Yahweh's prerogative in the New Testament construct, Jesus' prerogative. Even as it pertains to healing, God may grant healing. And I love how how you guys uh approach that with excitement and anticipation, believing God for big things, praying for big things, but then if it if it doesn't happen, still trusting in the grace and mercy and the providence of God, because we don't we we trust in his power and and he allows us to be vessels of that power to work through, but we never get to say, God, you're gonna do this. And that's that's what turned me off so much to to so much charismatic thought, is because so much of what I was exposed to is is kind of it sounds like you're trying to tell God what to do. And I'm like, whoa, we we don't get we don't get to do that. We don't we don't get to do that. And so, but yeah, I love that you brought that up.

SPEAKER_02 46:29

I'd like to make some more distinctions if we I know we've got only a little bit of time left, but let's try to make some distinctions between what would be considered magical practices in a Mesopotamia Egyptian-like setting, augury, talismans, try trying to think of the various forms of divination that I can think of uh that are coming up from the ancient history. Sure, there you go. You know, necromancy would be another one, right? Like you get a whole bunch of them of these actions and practices. And then once we've done that, I'd love to contrast that a little bit with what would by at least the academic world see as the ritualistic use of certain objects, such as the ephod, such as the practice of casting lots for God's decision, those sorts of things, into contrast to those two, because I'm interested in that. But but first, let's set up the foundation of like some of the magical practices, which we probably should have done earlier. I might be editing this video and chopping pieces around, but uh uh let's talk about the magical practices themselves, because I would imagine what we see in the New Testament, what we see in the Old Testament, these kind of justified, these kinds of prescribed forms of communication and gleaning information from Yahweh would, in some sense, probably be polemical even against the ancient Near Eastern uses of magic. I I think of Paul and Ephesus using handkerchiefs to heal the sick, which is kind of a you know, my snot rag heals. You need this big fancy talisman that's pressed by this priest. That'll heal you, right. Like, um, so that that's the kind of polemical side in the New Testament. I'm curious if there's Old Testament counterparts to that.

SPEAKER_03 48:16

Oh, okay, so that was a lot to take in.

SPEAKER_02 48:20

So Yeah, I barely ask questions. I just kind of you know ramble as my thoughts.

SPEAKER_03 48:26

Well, and I I I I I kind of tacked on or attached more to the end of it as opposed to to where it had begun. So some of the practices that that they would have utilized, such as you know, the necromancy in its various forms, uh, I mean, astrona astrona, no, astrology, that that's that's ancient tale as old as time. I mean, trying to to surmise the future through through the celestial bodies, right? I mean, there's one trying to commune with the dead, that's something that is is as ancient as it gets. And God was really big about about condemning that multiple times over. Extissipacy, I mean, they would even get like organs, cut something open and and read its organs. And what can we understand from the unseen realm about the seen realm through through these various various means? Those were some of the things that they were were doing. So rituals, rituals, talismans, these kinds of things. I I I want to secure the blessing of the other side. I want something on the other side to influence my situation, right? Whether it be my land, whether it be my wife's womb, what those kinds of things. Or one of the most ancient motivations for seeking the occult or or or the esoteric, I want to know the future. I I want to know what I can't know naturally. I'm gonna try and talk to the dead. And and some some some of those practices weren't necessarily trying to commune with deceased spirits, but openly trying to engage with spirits on the other side, thinking that engaging in these practices, they didn't see it as, oh, a demon is gonna talk to me. They were like, Well, I'm sure the if the physical world is populated in the way that it is, I'm sure the supernatural is equally as populated. And so I'm just gonna make sure that I talk to one of the good guys over there, you know, and they're thinking, yeah, I'm one of the good ones, you know, I'll I'll lead you the right way. Um, whereas the things what getting into Yahweh and getting into ancient Israel and those kinds of things, uh, I believe concessions were made by Yahweh because these people did not exist in a vacuum. Casting lots was one of the first things that I really wrestled with by my third episode because I wanted to, I wanted to anticipate pushback from practitioners of the occult to say, you're doing the same thing. Ancient Israel did the same thing. And I even had a character that I created for that series that that was kind of the voice of antagonism that would say, you know, well, isn't this like what you're doing there? And um real really chewing through that and going to all the places that the Bible talks about this. And like the the practice does resemble the the surrounding ancient divinatory methods uh at the level of outward form. I mean, if you're just from the outside looking in, you'll be like, hey, the those casts and the lots, that looks a little bit like what we're doing over here. You're telling me that I can't practice my divination, my type. You're saying I can't use extiscipacy, I can't slice open this goat and read its organs, but you can throw those, you know, whatever your view on lots is. There's some see them as sticks, some see them as stones that were cast, stones that were drawn. There's various views on how the lots were actually. I I think when it says cast, I think it means caste. But um on that episode, I wanted to argue that it ancient Israel did not use lots in the same way. Like if if I was practice practicing divination of some kind, open-ended inquiry was was was part of it, right? Whereas with lots, God already authorized the questions they were allowed to ask. He bounded the context with which they could ask. It was up to him to to give the outcome. So it's not like, oh, I did the ceremony wrong. So if I do it again, I'm gonna, I'm gonna, it's gonna work the next time. It's like, no, God was in charge of every step, and even Proverbs uh uh uh 16, you know, we throw the lot, the Lord determines how it falls, right? And so there, even with that practice, it was still so surrendering to the will of Yahweh in the process. They weren't trying to exert any power or authority over Yahweh, it was submitting to a means that Yahweh had permitted in which to devise Yahweh's will in an age that was void of the Holy Spirit as we have him today, right? We we get to enjoy the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. So we have a level of communion with God that the ancients only dreamed of, that ancient Israel only dreamed of, right? So we now have this intimacy with God that that they didn't have. Pentecost on, we have this beautiful union with with God, with his Holy Spirit indwelling us, whereas back then wasn't the same, right? So he allowed concession. He he said, look, you want to know uh an answer to to something. And again, it was always on a set question. He he'd set the boundaries for it and and then they would ask. And I mean, you think of it like how how Saul was chosen to be king, right? Line up all the tribes, and then okay, this tribe, then all the clans within that tribe, then this, you know, and they cast until they got to him. And um, but God determined the question. They were just trying to find out what his answer was to the question. They were not exerting any authority over him in any of that, right? And and so with the other forms, it's it's almost as as though you're trying to uh it's open-ended. You you want information because you're trying to get an edge up, you know, uh, on on this or that. Uh you're you're seeking to utilize something for more selfish reasons. Whereas what the things that God allows concession for or instructs his people to do in ancient Israel, we already talked about the Ark. When they tried to use the Ark as a talisman, like the ancients, I if I have this talisman of Lilith, or well, actually, they would probably have uh a talisman of one of the beings that they think scared Lilith away, right? So so uh I have this talisman that is the power of this entity is embodied in this talisman. So, so you, evil spirit, you can't affect me because I have this thing that says you can't be here. So this thing kicks you your butt because he's stronger than you. You can't you can't be here, right? And and when the ark was, when they tried to use the ark in that way, as a talisman, if you will, as a means of of securing the power of a supernatural being, in this case, trying to secure Yahweh's power, he says, No, we're not in, you're we're not in covenant relationship right now. You're in rebellion. I I need you to be repenting, not trying to force my hand to give you victory against those Philistines. I'm gonna let you lose against those Philistines to show you I will not be manipulated. And that's not to say he didn't operate through the ark at all. Because where did they take the ark after it got after the Philistines whooped him? They took the ark into the temple of Dagon. Obviously, I'm talking about 1 Samuel. They took the ark into the temple of Dagon. Yahweh still acted through the ark, he just didn't act for them the way that they tried to manipulate, tried to twist his arm to do what they wanted.

SPEAKER_00 55:19

It's the sons of Skeva again. What's that? It's the sons of Skeva again.

SPEAKER_03 55:24

Yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly. And so uh fellowship is very much a part of any any any power that is available to the new covenant believer, we don't get to manipulate Jesus. It's always his will, it's always his his prerogative. We surrender to his providence, to to his will, um, and and we and we don't get to there, we don't get to take shortcuts, we don't get to use his name. I remember when I was a baby Christian, and you you kind of think like you treat Jesus' name as a magic spell. You think if I slap in Jesus' name at the end of my prayer, he is now obligated to do what I asked for. And Josh, I think a lot of immature Christians still treat it as that way. I mean, that's how I saw it as a baby Christian who didn't grow up in church. And I think, again, sadly, a lot of Christians see it that way. And there are certain charismatic abuses. I had a whole episode talking about you know Paula White and and and that kind of branch of of Christianity. I I don't even maybe that branch within Christendom, I don't even know what calling it.

SPEAKER_02 56:24

I heard I heard what you meant. Keep going.

SPEAKER_03 56:27

But um, but yeah, it in any in any case, when it comes to the power available to us, it's always his prerogative. Where the the practice doesn't guarantee the result. The stuff that is forbidden, the the occult stuff, the malevolent stuff, they see it as if I get it right, like you had mentioned earlier, they said, Oh, I messed up the spell. If I did it right, I would have got the correct outcome. The issue is not their heart. The issue was not like that being was somehow pleased or displeased with them. The issue was the ritual. And if I get the ritual right, the outcome is going to be accurate or or is going to get the I'm gonna get the desired outcome. Christian, it does not matter if you prayed the correct words. It doesn't guarantee the outcome because we are still beholden to the will of God, to the providence of God. And I think that's a major distinction between talking about the powers of the kingdom of light and the kingdom of darkness. We are still servants of the Most High, whereas those on the other side are almost trying to operate as equals within that kingdom. Now they're being manipulated, but but but they're they're they're trying to tap into these powers to get uh uh desired outcomes for themselves, to advance themselves, whatever the case may be. Whereas us, we are trying to advance the name. We're trying to advance the kingdom in the glory of our Christ. It's it's it's not about if I pray for healing, God, let it be because I'm gonna use my restored body that I might serve you more effectively. It's it's not even just for me personally or or selfishly, so that man, I can get out there and hit the hit the uh the basketball court again. It's like, no, God, it it if if you heal me, let it be that I might use that that strength now for your glory and honor and for the expansion of your kingdom. So I think that's another major distinction when talking about power.

SPEAKER_02 58:16

We've got a whole bunch of people who are tuning in to this program. They're watching two Christian guys who are both pastors, who are both very passionate about theology, talking about magic, right? And it's like, what's fruitful in this discussion? I'll I'll give you my two cents and I'll let you have an opportunity to share as well. You know, I am under the impression that there's a lot of ancient cultural worldview things that the Bible just assumes the readers understand. And because we're so far removed by language and culture and even geography from those specific events, understanding historical context gives me understanding to what is happening in the text. I made an argument recently that Nathan is a court prophet, so the activity that's seen in 2 Samuel 7 should be read in context of what a court prophet is and what their job is to do. Uh made other similar arguments, like certain idioms in the Old Testament are really hard to understand. Like he uncovered his father's nakedness in Genesis when Ham goes in to spy on his father after he's gotten drunk, Noah. And then Noah curses him. And then we look in Leviticus and we find that this is an idiom, which means to have relations with Noah's wife. Uh, and that's likely why Canaan is cursed. So again, people can disagree with that kind of interpretation, but I would make the argumentation that these sorts of idioms, these kind of historical background, help us understand what the text means, even if we, the reader, don't pick up on some of those hyperlinks and some of those clues. If you if you were to kind of make a case, Nellie, for why it's important to engage and understand, maybe not like obviously not practice, obviously not delve into uh into deep levels, magic, what what kind of argumentation would you give for why this is important for the church to discuss and think through?

SPEAKER_03 59:58

No, that's a great question. So uh I want to echo your remarks on context being of the utmost importance when trying to understand anything in the Bible. And one of the things I I I I love Heiser, and one of the things that he harped on a lot is when we talk about context of the Old Testament, we are not talking about first, second century, you know, Judea. You got to go back further to to understand what Moses was talking about, you have to try and put yourself in the mind of Moses, in the mind of of an ancient Israelite or someone that lived around that time. And the only way that we can really do that is to familiarize ourselves with the time period, with the people, with the cultures. So we we look at the text and when we reach an, you know, because some of the idioms and things that might be used, some of the language that might be used by the authors of the Old Testament, we don't use those idioms anymore. So we're trying to figure out, you know, well, what does it mean? Well, I'm not gonna ask somebody from the first century what something meant even further back, again, again, around Moses' time. So context is is really important. I and I kind of transitioning into why this is so relevant for this topic, right? So again, God forbids certain practices in his law, in Deuteronomy. He really, 18, I mean, harps on a list of practices and goes on and on and on saying, don't do this, don't do this, don't do this, you know, the the sorcerer and the necromancer. And and there's curses associated with doing these things. So it's like, man, if if if God is saying that these things are forbidden and if you know curses are are are to be issued out for these things, I really want to understand in context what these things are, what are what is forbidden. And uh I really wanted to approach it in a way that's not so dismissive. That's one of the reasons my show exists, is because I hate how incredibly dismissive people can be of supernatural things, especially within the church. Somebody has a a nefarious spiritual experience that's that that we don't know what to do with, and it doesn't fit within our theological box. So a lot of Christians would be like, well, you just hallucinated, or you didn't really have that, or you didn't really experience that. It's like, I'm not seeking to validate every supernatural experience, or uh, I'm not saying every occult practice is efficacious. There's a a lot of you know, cold reading or something like that. If I want to try and convince a room of people that that I have certain gifts, there are things that you can do to trick folks. We know those things exist, but when I go to Exodus 7 and 8, I don't see the the Egyptian court magicians, I don't see them using sleight of hand. And it's the the Bible that changed my mind on that, right? And and so context, understanding what's actually unfolding. But last thing of as to why it's so relevant, and and maybe I'm just speaking for myself, but it is because the occult has made such a massive re-emergence in Western culture. People are drawn to it. I think scientism, uh, naturalism, these these movements let people down. You know, they they said, we're gonna explain everything naturalistically. We're we're science is gonna explain everything there is in the universe, and it it failed. Historically, it didn't deliver. We knew it couldn't because we know that there's there's a natural world, a supernatural world that science can't can't touch. And so a lot of people were promised a bill of goods and it you know, came up wanting. So there's, I think a lot of people, especially in Washington, drawn to supernatural things now. They're opening themselves up, like, okay, naturalism failed. I know the world is more than just what I can see, taste, smell, touch, whatever. But but they're now looking for means that our God, the one true God, has forbidden and forbidden for good reason. So I want to say, hey, I'm not saying your beliefs are stupid. I'm saying, hey, I agree with you that these things are real. I just want to let you know you're not tapping into something that is benevolent. It is truly malevolent, and that the one true God who revealed himself in the person of Jesus Christ is saying, hey, you don't want to go there. This is not where you go for power. This is not where you go for answers or guidance. So yeah, that I hope that makes sense.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:58

Yeah, that's good, man. That's that's that's that's fantastic. Okay. We're we're kind of at the at the point where we need to wrap up, but I want to give you anything. I went on the opportunity. Sorry. No, no, no. I want to give you an opportunity. If you have something that we didn't touch on related to magic in the Bible, something you saw that kind of crept up that you're like, oh, this is really interesting. These are really helpful context. You know, we kind of we spoke about augury and talismans, and we've talked about, you know, necromancy very briefly. Uh we've talked about using names quite a bit to kind of exert authority over anything else that you would would come to mind, like, man, this is something we left out that we really need to talk about real quickly.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:34

I guess we're uh one one final thing. I mean, we touched on the sons of Skva. That's a that's a big one. Simon Magus is a really interesting figure uh to talk about from the New Testament. New Testament gives us all kinds of wild examples, you know, Peter's shadow and it the the cloths of Paul, you know, providing healing and and and and deliverance for people. But those objects, even those objects, they they weren't what brought about the deliverance. It was it was Jesus. He chose in his providence to operate through those objects, but it wasn't those objects themselves. But but it's Simon Magus, you know, he recognizes this real power and he he saw it as a transferable property. He wanted to obtain it. He said, Well, you know, what do I gotta do? What do I gotta pay, you know, to acquire that? I I want that power. And Peter's rebuke is very strong. It's a very firm rebuke. This this is this is a power that cannot be bought. Basically, to heck with you and your money, mister. That's what he says. I'll give the PG version. Um, to heck with you and your money. We we this this power cannot be bought. The sons of Skeva demonstrate that we we don't get to to use Jesus for our benefit. We are but servants of the most high. And and when he does allow his pop his power to operate in us and through us, it is a wonderful gift. It's a humbling gift, but but it is that it is it is a gift. We don't get to uh it's not a commodity. We don't we don't get to to to twist his arm, right? We're we're still uh he is the king, we are but doulos, as Paul said, we were slaves. Uh yeah, he is curios, he is master. And I think that's that that's important to to close with. Simon wanted to buy these buy this power. He saw real power, and he could recognize he knew he knew the other stuff, but he he saw something. But there are also there's a lot of Simon Magus out there that uh see what God does and see what he's doing. And you guys know this. Mike Winger is really good at talking about this stuff, you know, those that try to use the name, the name of our Jesus, to do the most awful, the most awful things. And so Simon was trying to do that more practically, you know, with supernatural power, but people use that name to exert power and authority in not magic ways, but in very manipulative ways. Uh, and and I think even the old, yeah, I forget the verse is eluding me, but but deception is as is as witchcraft, right? And and they are not occult practitioners, but very much practitioners of deception and manipulating people. So go back to your Bible if anything that I said today rubs you the wrong way. I tried to give as much Bible as I could in the time that we had. Go go go read your Bible, wrestle with with your Bible. Heiser used to say, I'm not going to protect you from your Bible. It was the Bible that changed my mind on many of the things that I talk about in the show. And I simply open up the possibilities for these things. And those possibilities have led me to some really cool places, really exciting places in my walk. So I guess that's where I'll leave it.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:36

That's fantastic. Man, Ellie, thanks for coming on. I appreciate it. I want to encourage people to go check out the Dancing Toaster. They've got a lot of really good content over there. Go check it out, do some deep dives. Uh, really enjoy the content. And and I hope that he gets a video up soon. I was just, I was chastising him before the program. Like, dude, you'd be you'd be famous if you just put a put a camera on yourself while you do this. Um, man, I I think the conversation's really important. I think it's extremely important for man Christians to realize, hey, this is the worldview of the, in some sense, the ancient Aries, but also like this idea of magic is becoming more and more prevalent. And I think when we make ourselves very distinguishable from the world, it gives us an opportunity to show the contrast between light and darkness. Or one rests in the power of God's sovereignty and love and trust, and the other wants to control the universe by their power. One is walking under God's providence, the other is trying to kind of make that providence for themselves, and then you begin to see that there's proof in the pudding, right? That it's actually a good and blessed thing to be a servant in the house of God rather than it is to be ruling in the kingdom of darkness, and the proof is in the pudding. I did the spell wrong, my life is coming to destruction. Well, turns out you're a really bad taskmaster. Turns out you're the worst master for your life, and uh you have an opportunity to be a bondservant in a very benevolent Lord's home. So uh I uh I hope this content is helpful for people as they're thinking through, man, just the scriptures and what they're seeing. I've got a question for you, Nelly, offline about the king of Moab sacrificing his son on the wall and tattoos that I have to ask you. But for the rest of you, thank you so much for tuning in. We'll see you guys next time.